Lazy developers exposed by Apple M1 transition (lack of native updates)

[plexuss]

Childish customers who want blood for a barely noticeable improvement in CPU use not happening fast enough.

Unfortunately that is the reality of developers. I don't envy them. No wonder so many have dopped support or closed up shop completely. But it might help people to understand what the constraints are and why some things arent so easy. For example, Dev A might easily be able to implement resizing across their products and Dev B cant without rewriting their code. Dev C might be have the same issue B but have used contract devs who are no longer available and there is no budget to hire them anyway. All these examples are typical scenarios that customers may not be aware of. And there are many more! On top of that, it's a difficult challenge to predict the future in terms of extensibility, and it''s likely it wont work out.

[sqigls]

yes this thread gets my vote for the 'most ridiculous'

Really? I find it interesting to discuss all the different needs and expecations of customers in the context of some of the typical challenges developers have on their end. It may help customers and developers to better understand each other and avoid conflicts. I find it useful in this regard. *shrug*

ok, the premise of the title of this thread is quite out of context with reality.
done

[kidslow]

Childish customers who want blood for a barely noticeable improvement in CPU use not happening fast enough.

The thing is that the improvements are beyond noticeable. You're talking out of your ass.

And how long is "fast enough" ... 18 months, 24 months, 36?

[briefcasemanx]

Childish customers who want blood for a barely noticeable improvement in CPU use not happening fast enough.

The thing is that the improvements are beyond noticeable. You're talking out of your ass.

And how long is "fast enough" ... 18 months, 24 months, 36?

I multiple devs saying the difference is less than 10% improvement and I think they would know, and I keep seeing m1 owners claiming they can run 100 tracks filled with tons of plugins on each track at 32 buffer without breaking a sweat.

If both those things are true, then it's barely noticeable, and people freaking out about m1 compatibility just want validation for their computer.

My non-Mac CPU runs a ton of tracks with a ton of plugins and if a bunch of my plugins started using 7% more CPU I don't even think I'd notice.

[wvshpr]

The reason why people are edging their seats on Silicon compatiblity is because the machines are very, very fast and the last couple of Intel Macs just weren't (or only in rare cases).

Benchmarks only seem to tell half of the story. There are other things under the hood (processor and system design, OS) that make the M1 series faster than Intel/AMD in their categories.

I'd love to see the devs you were referring to. I have only heard the polar opposite.

[legendCNCD]

Ok so now plugin developers are lazy too? I've heard this about game developers... still as stupid as then

[chk071]

Yep.

[Ploki]

4) lazy developers apparently

Not willing to earn money and pay off the mortgage? Unlikely.

Imo PA calculated that shiny new "gamechanger" rakes more money in than M1 compatibility. And considering their userbase, i'm 100% sure they were right.

Childish customers who want blood for a barely noticeable improvement in CPU use not happening fast enough.

Barely noticeable?
I'm doing beta for one of the big ones and one particular plugin: 100 instances Rosetta vs 170 instances M1, less CPU usage. Yeah, barely.

Childish customers who want blood for a barely noticeable improvement in CPU use not happening fast enough.

The thing is that the improvements are beyond noticeable. You're talking out of your ass.

And how long is "fast enough" ... 18 months, 24 months, 36?

I multiple devs saying the difference is less than 10% improvement and I think they would know, and I keep seeing m1 owners claiming they can run 100 tracks filled with tons of plugins on each track at 32 buffer without breaking a sweat.

If both those things are true, then it's barely noticeable, and people freaking out about m1 compatibility just want validation for their computer.

My non-Mac CPU runs a ton of tracks with a ton of plugins and if a bunch of my plugins started using 7% more CPU I don't even think I'd notice.

improvements aren't beyond noticable. Improvements are extremely noticable, and if i accidentally launch logic in rosetta i fumble around 15mins, freezing files, bitching why is interface laggy again (like on intel) and why do i get crackles.
Median improvement of my own personal benchmarks (same version plugin rosetta vs native) is 30%, outliers are 50%+ and 10%.
Melda is the worst, Fab, Voxengo and u-he are among above average, <nda> beta is punching like a motherf**ker going Metal/M1 in one go.

i've been using this for a year now because m1 has been my main and only machine, and i've tested X amount of M1 test builds because i was asking devs how the m1 builds are going.

This is synthetic tests obv, can’t quantise general feel. It feels like a new computer since i started running native sessions. I haven’t changed buffer from 64 since.

[Bombadil]

I'm an early adopter, too. I bought the basic M1 mini for my wife, who needed a new computer anyway. I decided to try Logic out on it (as one does). The 256gb/8gb config handled one of my projects that always choked the buffer on first pass with ease, in comparison to my i7 4hz 32gb RAM iMac.
So I got a BTO. No regrets, no problems, but I'm staying with 10.6.3 and Big Sur for now.

[foosnark]

Ok so now plugin developers are lazy too? I've heard this about game developers... still as stupid as then

Heh yeah, I always loved being called "lazy" while I was working 70 hour weeks with no overtime pay.

[SoftSynthLover99]

Ok so now plugin developers are lazy too? I've heard this about game developers... still as stupid as then

It shouldn’t take 3 years for a plugin developer to migrate it’s code to M1. Especially big companies like IK Multimedia, Plugin Alliance, Native Instruments etc who have bigger dev teams. If these companies spent half the resources on development instead of all the marketing campaigns things would be different I bet.

By calling them “lazy” I’m actually being generous. They either 1). Don’t give a crap about migrating to M1 in a quick and timely manner or 2). Are incompetent at the job they do and should find another field to work in.

Idc how many hours you work if you can’t produce results then it doesn’t matter. And yes you definitely see this laziness in the games industry! Games releasing unfinished and half way done and developers not really giving a crap because they make millions a day. If plugin developers get lazy like the AAA games industry then I will go full hardware lol.

[foosnark]

By calling them “lazy” I’m actually being generous.

Then by calling you a blockhead, I'm being super nice.

developers not really giving a crap because they make millions a day

Wow. I guess I was working the wrong jobs then, getting a $40K salary. Can you direct me to the "millions a day" software development jobs?

[Bombadil]

I wouldn't call it laziness, rather a company whose interests don't correspond with my needs and own interests. I,ve certainly noted who's gotten this done and who hasn't. I won't buy another plugin unless it is M1 Native.

[Agreed]

I feel like you have this strange conception of what is going on at development studios in general, man, I don't think that the laziness you're talking about is at play at all here. You just have expectations that you aren't seeing met, and then claim that is surely a sign of laziness and greed on the part of "developers ... [making] millions a day." Hey, publishers might make that kind of cash, but developers themselves? They're busting ass at all times, often under crunch conditions whether stated or not, often with relatively high turnover that complicates the maintenance of a large codebase (in no small part due to burnout from the aforementioned pace of work). Not making millions.

Most developers for games that don't get fixed aren't actually happy that happened, aren't thrilled their work and names are connected to a poorly supported flop or whatever. Usually it comes down to what kind of post-launch support is actually paid for - not saying that it isn't nonetheless a marker of a good versus a questionable studio to put out consistently broken stuff and not fix it, that's tanked plenty of houses over the decades.

Similarly I feel it's praiseworthy to be on top of this kind of transition and I appreciate companies who are capable of and willing to quickly support their products to keep them current. But I also appreciate - having seen this whole thing emerge, you know, how it's gone the whole time - that industry trends tend to lag behind the newest tech, sometimes by years. Example: I was using 64-bit plugins pretty early and so I appreciated companies like IKMM at the time who were supporting 64-bit early on... But it took a while to get fully away from 32-bit stuff in my mixing in general. Some companies did it quicker than others. I feel sure that as M1 continues to establish itself as a professional choice, developers will be eager to support it more robustly.

Quick note of thanks also to Aleksey for offering his perspective, which as usual I find very sensible. GlissEQ is still my favorite

[chk071]

By calling them “lazy” I’m actually being generous.

Then by calling you a blockhead, I'm being super nice.

I wonder how much money you have to spend to be entitled. Zero, I guess.