Experiential discovery vs. formal training in music theory

[vurt]

it's like now, i get a few modular people saying i do things differently, but ive never set out to do anything different, ive so far set out to learn what is possible with the chosen modules.

that has naturally lead to some bits and pieces that may be unusual, but don't necessarily always work

[Hink]

if you got your start recording before digital a certain amount of innovation was part of the experience if you ask me. I had 4 tracks a stereo drum machine and a desire to keep my drum tracks in stereo , I just simply found a way. That really comes from my upbringing with my dad and stepdad both being engineers and becoming a certified machinist, it's not just with music. Sometimes I wonder how I would survive without said skill, being innovative.

they were the worst kind of innovation though, you get all excited, can't wait to show someone what you've discovered, and they go "yeah, that's just what people do"

mine was changing the speed prerecord for different pitch fx

one of the songs I sent to my cousin (and the one he liked the best) had a whole bunch of layers of Gregorian chants I did (I think 11 was the total along with two guitar parts, bass and stereo drums), but I did similar, I slowed em down for effect. That was on a Yamaha MT4x

[Hink]

it's like now, i get a few modular people saying i do things differently, but ive never set out to do anything different, ive so far set out to learn what is possible with the chosen modules.

that has naturally lead to some bits and pieces that may be unusual, but don't necessarily always work

I once plugged a pair of non brand name replacement headphones for a sony walkman into the speaker out of my 100w Marshall plexi head and cranked it up...they lasted a few seconds

[vurt]

did they do the magick blue smoke?

[Hink]

no

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

thats what i mean, setting out just to innovate vs innovating naturally because of an idea.

Yeah, we are discussing very loose concepts here. If we look closer we may soon find that wierd does not necessaily mean innovative, that neither of them are prerequisites for "exploring", and that none necessarily follows from unrestricted freedom.

As to the latter, Peter and I tend to set up rules for ourselves and explore within them. E.g. in our new tune Jotuns, we avoid any dominant and subdominant harmony to get back to an old modal mood. This because our last tune became too tonal to us. There we explored harmonic minor and its V-i cadence but consequently ended up with a more modern sounding tune. Thus "experiments" and "explorations" can take place within rules and are in no sense dependent on unrestricted freedom.

[N__K]

It was basically musique concrete, found sounds and crude edits on a cheap cassette recorder.

That is fascinating!

Do you still have the recordings, original or digitized?

[N__K]

Realizing that little insignificant me could actually study and learn such a thing invoked a surreal state of mind and motivation. The next 5 years after high school I just did what I was told.

From my perspective, you and others who are well formally trained, so to speak, were "existentially lucky" to be able to do so.

Personally, I eff up at most attempts to be taught anything in structured and regimented way.

On the other hand, to "boldly go where someone has probably gone before, as long as I'm at the helm" - that seems to work. That is, learning experientially at own pace, which in my case is usually very slow (several years to half-adequately memorize note positions on the staff, and I still read at snail's pace).



***


The thorny question is to what extent such learning difficulties are a neurological thing, and to what extent an "attitude-based disabililty". Or perhaps one feeds into the other: what a person cannot do, they will consider as undesirable to them ("sour grapes", as per this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes ).

I admit to having something of an attitude, especially as a kid. I was into synths & sounds & sequencing, teachers were invariably into guitars & pianos & singing. I wanted blinking lights, they offered squigglies on a staff.

Nowadays, looking back, I am fairly sure that there was something of an attitude on teachers' side as well (with a few wonderful exceptions). In other words, as they noticed that their own training did not prepare to teach cases like me, I became something of a "sour grape" to them .


***


One notable positive example (way after elementary school) was a teacher who was into playing bass, sound poetry, theatre and "weird stuff" in general. Despite having traditional background, that teacher said "the computer is your instrument, and that's fine", and then abstained from judging me by traditional yardsticks. Thanks to that support, I went on to achieve some of my dreams in music.



TL;DR: sour grapes can apply both ways, and then lead to silly dichotomies, as noted in this thread...

[kelvyn]

My point of view is obviously very subjective and based on my experiences.
There’s a huge difference in composing to being a musician who plays an instrument.
I’ve found that most really great players aren’t composers... yes! There are notable exceptions, Jacob Collier for example:)
I know nothing about music don’t read or write, no theory, chords, circle of fifths and I am also not a good or even adequate player. Despite all that and what some would consider a hinderance I am and have been a relatively successful professional composer and musician for around thirty years.
I have found that understanding whatever context you are confronted with supplies you with the knowledge to either avoid cliches or to embrace them. Just doing whatever comes into your head and following the rabbit down the hole defines mostly what comes after. Trusting instinct and then forming... it’s like being confronted with a slab of marble and sculpting...chipping away until something appears.
So yeah! Experiential:)

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

From my perspective, you and others who are well formally trained, so to speak, were "existentially lucky" to be able to do so.

Besides from being born white in a fairly rich industrialised country, luck has very little to do with it. In Denmark, education is free. However, there is not room for all, so only those with highest grades get to high school and even less to the university. Thus, motivation and hard work were keys, not luck. The two music schools I entered were private and fee based, yet passing the exams to get the diplomas required hard work too.

Personally, I eff up at most attempts to be taught anything in structured and regimented way.

Sorry to hear that. You’d have problem dealing with our educational system then. We are pretty rigid as far structured learning concerns. To me, it is not the form that matters but whether I am motivated to learn. I pay the price smiling if the reward is what I want.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I know nothing about music don’t read or write, no theory, chords, circle of fifths and I am also not a good or even adequate player. Despite all that and what some would consider a hinderance I am and have been a relatively successful professional composer and musician for around thirty years.

No formally trained I know of would doubt this as possibility and fact regarding many composers. It is more the other way around that is disputed, ime, whether those formally trained should be able to act differently from Pavlov’s dogs and come up with anything innovative or original.

[N__K]

Thus, motivation and hard work were keys, not luck. The two music schools I entered were private and fee based, yet passing the exams to get the diplomas required hard work too.

Yep, importance of expending efforts is undeniable, I did not mean to imply otherwise.

In addition to what I wrote before, by "existential luck" I mean the general fact that when many in a competition give their 100%, only a few end up winning; and the rest are considered losers, even if they did their best.

A related thing is that through competition a hierarchy comes to be - and sometimes hierarchies breed rebels and messiah wannabes...

In wider philosophical perspective, I've often wondered whether the practice of "competition where only few end up winning" is something humanity will someday "grow out" of. But that's a subject for another thread, I suppose.


***

For what it's worth, it was once - though only once - suggested to me to try applying to highest musical academy in the country I live in. I did check the requirements, and one of them was a real-time prima vista singing exam.
I knew that even if by some miracle I pass the others, that one would disqualify me immediately - and I had seen such stories shared on local music makers' forums.
That said, I like to think that there remains a per-billion chance of me someday being involved with that institution, if they ever need to fill out their spectrum, so to speak

[N__K]

I know nothing about music don’t read or write, no theory, chords, circle of fifths and I am also not a good or even adequate player. Despite all that and what some would consider a hinderance I am and have been a relatively successful professional composer and musician for around thirty years.

In which genre(s), if it's safe to tell that on a forum?

I bet you have plenty of "personal theory", in some sense

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I know nothing about music don’t read or write, no theory, chords, circle of fifths and I am also not a good or even adequate player. Despite all that and what some would consider a hinderance I am and have been a relatively successful professional composer and musician for around thirty years.

I bet you have plenty of "personal theory", in some sense

I bet that Jan would bet on that too, and I would comply. Hard to imagine any practise that would not spawn theories or likewise reflections, tho they may be personal. Guess we need to be split-brains to prevent language based cognition to interfere with our actions. It is our natural make up.

[N__K]

[...] It is more the other way around that is disputed, ime, whether those formally trained should be able to act differently from Pavlov’s dogs and come up with anything innovative or original.

In my observations, formal training is a plus to composers.

That said, I believe that paths we have taken tend to decide, to some extent, also our future possibilities.

A hypothetical case: could John Williams [let's disregard the age factor for sake of conversation] make genre-acceptable psytrance, for example?
In terms of theory skills, absolutely - he has all the knowledge required for it. In terms of sound design - after reading a few synth manuals, more likely than not.
But internalizing the genre aesthetics and sensibilities, and "tuning into the spirit of the scene", so to speak? I'm not so sure.

(I suspect jancivil could make some stellar psy or goa, and curiously enough appears to use same DAW as Astral Projection )