How important is the piano roll to you?

[MrJubbly]

How does any of that, counter what I originally stated?

Because they aren't "equivalent" to me - tracker editor is faster and covers many more features.

For me piano roll is a a worse alternative, not equal replacement

Well, that's because Trackers and modern DAW/Sequencers are different types of music production software.

However, for the 'type' of music production software that each actually is, that is exactly what the note editor of trackers and the piano rolls of DAW sequencers are: 'equivalents' for (and within) each separate music production environment.

The fact that you may personally prefer, or be able to get more done in one type of environment than the other, is completely besides the point and entirely different matter altogether.

You seem to have mistakenly equated the term 'equivalent' with 'identical' and somehow took offence at that, since you can do more within your preferred tracker environment. When that was never the point I was making or had stated.

That being said, 'most' (note: not 'all') of what can be achieved within Trackers note editor views can 'equivalently' be achieved within DAW piano rolls, which is what makes them 'equivalent' to each software's environment (tracker vs MIDI).

[antic604]

How does any of that, counter what I originally stated?

Because they aren't "equivalent" to me - tracker editor is faster and covers many more features.

For me piano roll is a a worse alternative, not equal replacement

Well, that's because Trackers and modern DAW/Sequencers are different types of music production software.

However, for the 'type' of music production software that each actually is, that is exactly what the note editor of trackers and the piano rolls of DAW sequencers are: 'equivalents' for (and within) each separate music production environment.

The fact that you may personally prefer, or be able to get more done in one type of environment than the other, is completely besides the point and entirely different matter altogether.

You seem to have mistakenly equated the term 'equivalent' with 'identical' and somehow took offence at that, since you can do more within your preferred tracker environment. When that was never the point I was making or had stated.

That being said, 'most' (note: not 'all') of what can be achieved within Trackers note editor views can 'equivalently' be achieved within DAW piano rolls, which is what makes them 'equivalent' to each software's environment (tracker vs MIDI).

The fact I disagree with you or have different opinion doesn't mean I "took offence". We're discussing our equally valid - because subjective - points of view.

[xbitz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpfHwPOB-MM

can confirm it

[antic604]

^^^ nice!

[N__K]

Reading through the thread it seems that the majority use the piano roll. What does this mean? You click in notes with a mouse? Push, or what?

Wacom Cintiq tablet drawing display, allowing to draw notes precisely with the pen.

If the DAW can be well configured for tablet compatibility (REAPER is the best at it so far in my experience, Cubase and FL Studio support it to some extent, and some others too), it's like drawing MIDI on paper. Note length corresponds to the distance pen touches the tablet surface, and modifier keys can be used for quantized drawing if needed, etc.

Personally I won't go back to mousing, especially seeing as pen / stylus is supported in more and more devices each year.


EDIT: pointed out that a Cintiq is a display

[MrJubbly]

Reading through the thread it seems that the majority use the piano roll. What does this mean? You click in notes with a mouse? Push, or what?

Wacom Cintiq tablet, allowing to draw notes precisely with the pen.

If the DAW can be well configured for tablet compatibility (REAPER is the best at it so far in my experience, Cubase and FL Studio support it to some extent, and some others too), it's like drawing MIDI on paper. Note length corresponds to the distance pen touches the tablet surface, and modifier keys can be used for quantized drawing if needed, etc.

Personally I won't go back to mousing, especially seeing as pen / stylus is supported in more and more devices each year.

I seriously doubt too many people actually use a tablet to edit notes in piano rolls (maybe around < 3% (if that)).

Most users are surely recording their live performances directly via external MIDI keyboard controllers and then using their mouse in the piano roll for any post recording tasks like any clean up, quantize, editing, or other tweaking duties.

[xbitz]

^^^ it seems perfectly usable for controlling DAWs but for composing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9GGMLtmv8Y

how do you put emotions into it with a tablet, I'm just wondering, for ex.
https://www12.zippyshare.com/d/rv3Rnn6w/15023/test.wav
played it with two different attitudes, could you show an example?

[N__K]

Just to be clear, Wacom Cintiq is a product line of drawing displays. They come with pens that (usually) have two buttons, and "ExpressKey remote" controllers that have multiple buttons to which modifier keys etc. can be mapped.

Unlike a digitizer-only tablet (like in the video linked in above post), a display with a digitizer has 1:1 correlation of physical movement of the pen tip to the cursor on the display. That's what I mean by saying that it's like drawing MIDI on paper.

For efficient workflows on Cintiq pen displays and digitizer tablets, learning to use the modifier keys is usually essential (same as in visual drawing apps such as Photoshop etc.)

how do you put emotions into it with a tablet [...]

If by emotions you mean differences in velocity, timbre, note position relative to grid etc., I set them as needed per-note.
Modifier keys (Shift, Alt, Cmd/Ctrl) and other functions mapped to buttons of ExpressKey remote help a lot to make that quicker.


For example, in my REAPER setup:

• stroke of a pen draws a note, by default off-grid (unquantized)
• holding Cmd/Ctrl enables quantization to grid, even mid-stroke
• lifting the pen tip, holding Shift, bringing the tip down over a note and moving up-down enables velocity adjustment of that note (and any notes selected with it). It sounds more complicated than it is when broken down that way - it's a rather swift and intuitive movement in actuality
• one of pen buttons enables selection; so I can hold it, move the pen tip to cover multiple notes, and adjust properties of several of them. This behavior also has modifier keys to add or subtract from selection.
• as with mouse, general editing is changed by modifier keys; thus I can move and copy notes both on- and off-grid, depending on modifier pressed.

That may seem complicated to real-time instrument players, understandably - but people who have used Cintiq displays and pen tablets for digital art and photo editing will be familiar with the user experience.

I'm not a good real-time player, so for me drawing MIDI that way is faster than playing and correcting it post-recording.



***


One thing to note is that pen pressure is unfortunately not yet supported in any DAW that I know of. If it was, one could adjust velocity of note at the time of stroke instead of "lift+hold modifier+press+move" like currently. A point of comparison in drawing apps is controlling width or opacity of brush with pen pressure.

I have suggested adding pen pressure support to [some] DAW developers, considering the fact that tablet computers with pressure-sensitive pens are become common. Time will tell whether we'll see it implemented someday.

[jancivil]

...drawing displays. They come with pens
multiple buttons to which modifier keys...

how do you put emotions into it with a tablet [...]

If by emotions you mean

seriously?

[N__K]

...drawing displays. They come with pens
multiple buttons to which modifier keys...

how do you put emotions into it with a tablet [...]

If by emotions you mean

seriously?

"as cancer, when I say rhythm is a dancer"

[Biome_Digital]

The Piano roll? The most important for me!

[matrixo9]

When making music, how important is the piano roll for you? Or maybe you don't use it.

It's important. How about you? Why do you care what others do?

OP is on a roll today, it seems.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=576023

viewtopic.php?f=102&t=576022

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=576021

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=576020

Why are you still replying in my threads?

Why not? I don't explicitely look who created the thread. I just noticed that you create a lot of threads asking for opinions, with a one liner opener.

These people are called locals
They have been around for years and reply to almost every post

[sQeetz]

When making music, how important is the piano roll for you?

yes

[foosnark]

I don't use the piano roll anymore. I recognize Bitwig's piano roll features are weaker than some other DAWs, but it's irrelevant to me.

When I use software synths they're either:
- controlled by Microfreak's built-in sequencer or arp,
- played live with a Launchpad X,
- droning,
- controlled by (hardware or software) modular sequencing converted to MIDI,
- or have their pitch modulated with Bitwig modulators (e.g. step sequencer).

Any sequences I have going are either generative in some way (and controllable with "live" controls) or are simple loops. I will either control the mix levels, or enable/disable the sequence/gates as I play (since I record while improvising).

Sure, the same technique can work with a piano roll if I keep it to simple loops, but I don't enjoy doing it that way anymore.

[Fraggle]

. It’s one of the most important parts of any DAW that I use.

It's vital