Experiential discovery vs. formal training in music theory

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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jancivil
KVRAF
23951 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:25 pm

I've really sought to hammer that home, real time playing, tho

N__K
KVRist
Topic Starter
178 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:27 pm

vurt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:12 pm babylon 5 is a big pile of shit
So say you and your associates :D



vurt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:12 pm rip john vulich :(
Indeed.

Back when JV was active on KvR I mostly lurked here (under a different nickname) and wondered how small a world can be. 7 billion, and a fellow whose work I was watching on TV was on same music forum.

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donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
10414 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:28 pm

jancivil wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:25 pm I've really sought to hammer that home, real time playing, tho
Yeah, I was more on about jamming. You can't really do that with a mouse and piano roll... :hihi:

N__K
KVRist
Topic Starter
178 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:43 pm

donkey tugger wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:22 pm [...] improvising and jamming [...]
I hear stuff in my head, oftentimes in echolalic and cryptomnesic ways, especially when on enough sugar and theobromine. Variations come from misremembering and whatever randomization that happens in the brain (I know of no term for it at this time).
People have occasionally told me to desist from humming, whistling and singing (the latter of which can be atrocious) as I don't even notice doing it - but by deity, the others do :D Heck, I where live, the traffic lights have beepers that do 16ths, and oftentimes I start whistling Sandstorm to them...

So, if a combination of "neural network + assorted organs" counts as a real-time instrument, I definitely have one.

jancivil
KVRAF
23951 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 pm

N__K wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:54 am I'd say that self-delusion is sometimes the only way to survive, psychologically.
I got into (more than one) conservatory after 2 1/2 to 3 years woodshedding on classical guitar. At a major conservatory - this one basically preps the worthy for their career at the Metropolitan Opera, the major leagues - the people that belong there begin preparing as small children, not at 18. I was not the worst guitarist there, perversely enough (money talks, I guess) but I was so beyond my depth it was ridiculous. You might say it was brutal.

But I kept my nose to the grindstone and when it came time to play for jury - mine was a legend, that rumor had it didn't think much of the guitar - I must've been prepared enough to get an A. An entire JS Bach violin partita, on guitar, for Henry Meyer (2nd violinist of the La Salle Quartet). Reality here: sink, or swim. It did nearly cause a breakdown but this is more the reality of earning a living, which wasn't going to be me on tour; that will have been practically delusional.

anyway, La Salle doing this thing Ligeti dedicated to them.
https://youtu.be/4soynN2_mT0

cue people saying this is incoherent noise

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BertKoor
KVRAF
13640 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:11 pm

donkey tugger wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:22 pm One thing that I don't think has been touched upon (apologies if it has...) is how much you miss by not learning to play, by being excluded from improvising and jamming.

So many great ideas can come from it, you pick up new techniques and styles, learn when to play and when not to etc.. even if it's just playing over something you recorded yourself.

As I've said before, I'm not against piano roll note entry, or indeed reliance on theory over 'practice', but just concentrating on it to exclusion of actually playing removes such a great deal of what's spontaneous and enjoyable about music.
+1, hear hear!
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jancivil
KVRAF
23951 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:16 pm

donkey tugger wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:28 pm
jancivil wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:25 pm I've really sought to hammer that home, real time playing, tho
Yeah, I was more on about jamming. You can't really do that with a mouse and piano roll... :hihi:
I just did a minor revision of a thing that does include somebody making it up on the spot, then I adapt it and build things off of it. the experience he wanted was to recapture what we used to do, but remotely via a network. It was not feasible as it required both of us to have land lines and special modems, because wifi is too flaky for low latency. But the experience with this individual is what I build off of, not any hifalutin Platonic bit.
realtime for real but then not even hardly, begins just before 1:52

https://y2u.be/Jf4OeEbI-J8

jancivil
KVRAF
23951 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pm

I'm on 'lead piano', whole lotta pencil tool
N__K wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:43 pm
donkey tugger wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:22 pm [...] improvising and jamming [...]
So, if a ...
Jamming is pretty much taken to mean interacting with other people per se.
"I jammed with my environment" - said environs were probably well indifferent, isn't it

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vurt
addled muppet weed
93770 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:26 pm

jancivil wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 pm
N__K wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:54 am I'd say that self-delusion is sometimes the only way to survive, psychologically.
I got into (more than one) conservatory after 2 1/2 to 3 years woodshedding on classical guitar. At a major conservatory - this one basically preps the worthy for their career at the Metropolitan Opera, the major leagues - the people that belong there begin preparing as small children, not at 18. I was not the worst guitarist there, perversely enough (money talks, I guess) but I was so beyond my depth it was ridiculous. You might say it was brutal.

But I kept my nose to the grindstone and when it came time to play for jury - mine was a legend, that rumor had it didn't think much of the guitar - I must've been prepared enough to get an A. An entire JS Bach violin partita, on guitar, for Henry Meyer (2nd violinist of the La Salle Quartet). Reality here: sink, or swim. It did nearly cause a breakdown but this is more the reality of earning a living, which wasn't going to be me on tour; that will have been practically delusional.

anyway, La Salle doing this thing Ligeti dedicated to them.
https://youtu.be/4soynN2_mT0

cue people saying this is incoherent noise
that's just incoherent noise!

:hihi:


figured, from me, that would be funny :lol:

yes, im "definitely high on weed" :D
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jancivil
KVRAF
23951 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:28 pm

there's actually a moment in the 'V' section where he outs with this rather lush harmony, then gets back to the stringent stuff. Ligeti don't give a shit.

Synthack
KVRian
687 posts since 4 Dec, 2021

Post Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:40 pm

Well I'm gonna start my journey into music theory now.

C you around!

Remember to stay sharp! :hihi:
.... ...

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TribeOfHǫfuð
Banned
995 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 am

jancivil wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:30 pm "That cannot play" today is one thing, that haven't ever played or done the due diligence and got some craft together is quite another.
Mmm! Wonderful word :love: Craftmanship is what theory is good for to me.

Made my first tune at the age of 14 with one of these

Image

+ an ugly Bontempi organ + my dad's old accoustic/electric guitar on which he had taught me a major, minor and dim chord + overdubbing with 2 tape recorders where one of them was used to overdrive the guitar as well. A funny little tune with lots of tape noise. :lol: Later came the pre-midi cv/gate synth studios. Then my first 4-track, then midi set ups and later workstations.

I did not start by taking piano or guitar lessons. It was craftmanship from day one, and it was the drive of everything else: Later piano lessons, going for the musical line at high school and eventually music schools.

Conclusion: Lovely word indeed. To craft music or sound. Seems more broad and inclusive than "composing" to me, which can sound somewhat technical and linked to its use in classical music.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

N__K
KVRist
Topic Starter
178 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:36 am

jancivil wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 pm [...] when it came time to play for jury [...]
On what grounds did you accept their authority to judge you?

***

Ligeti is interesting. I especially like "Lux Aeterna", in part due to 2001: A Space Odyssey associations.

N__K
KVRist
Topic Starter
178 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:58 am

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:06 am Conclusion: Lovely word indeed. To craft music or sound. Seems more broad and inclusive than "composing" to me, which can sound somewhat technical and linked to its use in classical music.
Yep. Makes me think of the concept of "sound art" in contrast to "tone art" or "pitch art".

In Star Wars terms, what Ben Burtt did compared to what John Williams did.
Lightsaber hum, R2-D2 beeps, processed droid and alien vocalizations, the "seismic charge" and so on - one could turn off the [non-processed] dialogue as well as the picture, and depending on the scene, the result would remind of Milton Babbitt, musique concrete, and perhaps also some newer forms of electronic music.

And it was definitely crafted more than played.

jancivil
KVRAF
23951 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville

Post Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:59 am

N__K wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:36 am
jancivil wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 pm [...] when it came time to play for jury [...]
On what grounds did you accept their authority to judge you?
How obtuse can one be? I mean is there such stiff competition for Dunning-Kruger Effect world champion here? I was there to get some chops together, specifically to be judged.

:idiot:

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