Experiential discovery vs. formal training in music theory

[N__K]

I'd say that it indeed can be both, depending on perspectives and mindsets a person is considering at any given time.

There you go again. Missing the point completely or twisting it in your head as premise for your text-wall. An either or neither cannot be a continuum as well (a gradual change from one to the other in terms of relative amount of both). It is a rule of logic and screwed personal perspectives to it do not make a difference. Thus your composing versus crafting in terms of your StarWars analogy is an either or neither, therefore a suggestion of a real dichotomy, which consequently cannot be a false dichotomy at the same time, which you also said it was as response to my continuum reminder. It is but rubbish.

"Only a sith deals in absolutes!"
Sorry, but you were really paving the way for that one

As said, I do see those things as a continuum - or a rhizome, perhaps. Or a painting so large that to see its details one has to come to a close distance, at which the entire painting is too big to see at a glance.

Still, even if I did see a black-and-white dichotomy in it (I do not), it'd be no more than a difference in opinion and personal views.

Also, what you call twisting there is a personal interpretation, of which you do as much as I. But I'm not accusing you of "screwed personal perspectives".

Again, you show no particular skills or training to discuss at the level you want. Getting grip on your own logic and contradictions would be a prerequisite. Understanding what people are saying by such a grip would be another.

I believe I'm discussing at the level I want, but it does not match what you'd like me to be, and that creates some dramatic tensions. It seems to be an annoyance, but also drives a discussion in which we (may) learn more about ourselves.

I dare to claim that you too still have a lot to learn. When the spectre you've painted of me in your mind fades, and you dare to turn your powers of perception and analysis towards yourself, I suspect there will be new perspectives available. Or not.

***

Most interestingly, we seem to be still exactly on-topic, playing it out as examples of people whose realities are just different enough that there can be a "versus" between them.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

"Only a sith deals in absolutes!"
Sorry, but you were really paving the way for that one

Logic does not bend to your personal opinions. And it is your “either or neither” Star Wars analogy that is the absolute, not my continuum, Mister Twister Unbefuckinglievable that you cannot even adopt basic logic as premise for a discussion. Neither does the state of music theory bend to your personal opinion nor others aspects of reality. Look up the word.

This is hopeless.
I am off now. You haven’t moved a bit since our first discussion about the usefulness of your pitch degree notation. You would just run in circles ad nauseam, reject and deflect, and I would end up as frustrated as Jan due to your self-blinded perseverance.

I dare to claim that you too still have a lot to learn.

Yup. But hardly from you.

Best of luck in life, mate. You may need it

[N__K]

"Only a sith deals in absolutes!"
Sorry, but you were really paving the way for that one

Logic does not bend to your personal opinions. And it is your “either or neither” Star Wars analogy that is the absolute, not my continuum, Mister Twister Unbefuckinglievable that you cannot even adopt basic logic as premise for a sound discussion. Neither does the state of music theory bend to your personal opinion nor others aspects of reality. Look up the word.

I have explained what I mean in my previous posts; if that does not reach you at this time, it cannot be helped.

As for music theory, my take on it serves me well enough. And regarding reality, I have witnessed many aspects of it to be quite pliable, within some universal limits of course.



Too bad you edited away the solipsism angle, I find it interesting. But I believe I understand why you saw fit to remove it.

For what it's worth, I ask myself [the question you asked] every day, in different contexts. The amount of self-doubt and impostor syndrome I go through on regular basis is considerable. And yet I think that the only way to make my life worth living is to persist as long as I breathe, concentrating on what I am capable of instead of what I am not.

This is hopeless.
I am off now. You haven’t moved a bit since our first discussions about the usefulness of your scale degree notation. You would just run in circles ad nauseam, and I would end up as frustrated as Jan due to your perseverance.

I suspect that this perseverance is a big part of what annoys you about me. That and the fact that I allow myself a large measure of what you call solipsism. In some ways, it is a way to cope - in others, a creative tool.

I dare to claim that you too still have a lot to learn.

Yup. But hardly from you.

Indeed, not so much from me, but from your own responses to me.

That reminds of some discussions I've had not so long ago on another forum, with fellows who were into conspiracy theories. At the time I believed I was enlightening them on things including basic logic; but the more I look back on it, the more it seems like me having been taught something about humanity.

Best of luck in life, mate. You may need it

Thanks - I'll choose to take that as a sincere and good-willed wish. And I appreciate the exchanges

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Yeah, well, chill. All this is mainly a chit for a chat to me. I just got annoyed that you screwed up my pleasure in the word "craft" by turning my saying into such nonsense that Jan thought it came from you. Unintended yes, but still a pita. Especially when you refuse correction.

Hi and bye

[N__K]

I just got annoyed that you screwed up my pleasure in the word "craft" by turning my saying into such nonsense that Jan thought it came from you. [...]

Yep, jancivil seems to have mistaken your words ( viewtopic.php?p=8336409#p8336409 ) for mine in her post: viewtopic.php?p=8336870#p8336870

But it must be noted that she quoted your words exactly.
I then chose to preserve it in a nested quote ( viewtopic.php?p=8336881#p8336881 ) because it reveals the attitude you fellows occasionally have towards me.


Same exact words, when written by you, did not trigger jancivil's wrath - but when she apparently thought that I had written them, came a sharp response.

It seems like I'm the nearest target to unload into, especially to jancivil on her bad days - and you occasionally tend to join the firing squad. Except that, figuratively speaking, this time she saw a spectre of me in front of your face, and fired at it.
So the reality - or universe, or god, or whatever any of us may call it - seems to have a sense of drama


***


I'll try to take a break as well - as much as I appreciate the humanity, time spent on forums looks bad on my timetracking sheets, and for that I can only blame my own failings.

My best wishes to you fellows

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

It seems like I'm the nearest target to unload into, especially to jancivil on her bad days - and you occasionally tend to join the firing squad.

Cry me a river.

[jancivil]

Sure, go ahead and make my objection to absolute bullshitting about my day. These were not worse days than when I've been more generous in spirit towards you, it's the very fact of someone right here in front of me thinking nonsense and word salad is collegial and part of a conversation at all. (in fact that was a pretty good day, I was revising an arrangement and while sorting the density of it was not easy, I was finding some fresh magic. You do not know me, do not tell the world what my feelings are, FFS.)
Instead of the inferiority complex on parade it palpably is.

I'm simply someone that's too old to hold onto or bury my genuine reaction. Given that our first encounter is pretty well summed up in the 'against diversity' remark I suppose I owe you nothing going forward; I wasn't having claims of fact that are demonstrably false (and the choice of demonstration was ludicrous, which signaled to me one that has a severely narrow view of music. I doubt you'd heard 'quartal harmony' really at all.). It isn't me that's limited in this way. You have the temerity to pose as though a rhetorical question why one would accept authority from a master. The juvenile arrogance of these gestures, man. You have no sense of the room, it's just solipsistic at that point.

"And it was definitely crafted more than played." Were you there? Did you do this work? What do you know about it? What does that even MEAN? ALL this does in the discussion is highlight that you can't play and need to make that seem like an asset. Sorry, no, you're entirely full of shit, sometimes people recognize that but quick. From the get-go. Long walls of text, inconsiderate weird overuse of spacing between paragraphs, and some of the rankest bullshit gestures - NB: gestures, notions, not ideas, not substance - and this is pretty much all we get.

Me, I happen to have A LITTLE formal training, so what. I wasn't taught how to compose at all, I went to school for a bit of craft that school is the more efficient path to obtaining. But for the insecure bullshit artist that thinks semi-quasi-clever philosophisizing masks the emptiness of, the absence of a genuine idea, I'm just a part of a strawman story about uptight classical musicians. (Which is just a defense mechanism leaping to the fore.) It's the intellectual dishonesty that leads us to this juncture; my personality is such that I may at times type something closer to my genuine take on what just went on than I tend to even do. But, if you could refrain from posturing and wild and clear failures of the reasoning engine, we would be somewhere more pleasant and edifying in general. This thread is a shithow from the word go, an unnecessary dichotomy between 'formal training' and 'discovery in experience'. Your experience appears to be pretty thin, child. Hate to have to say so.

[jancivil]

"I dare to claim that you too still have a lot to learn."
Where do you get off with the assumption anyone else doesn't get this?
You're the one posturing like you understand quite more than you do. "it was definitely crafted more than played"

Someone from the paradigm I came to embrace as a young person places themselves in a position to be criticized and to recognize the authority of masters, a position of humility; you've shown us the diametric opposite, one that uses their intelligence as a shield from it.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I'm just a part of a strawman story about uptight classical musicians.

For a diversity hating, genius oppressing, tight-arsed classical trained conserative mummy, one must say you make some pretty spacy sht. How that is even possible given the indisputable distinction of the thread will remain a mystery, I guess, but you didn´t get it from Fux or Jeppesen, that much I dare to claim

[jancivil]

Yeah, well, chill. All this is mainly a chit for a chat to me. I just got annoyed that you screwed up my pleasure in the word "craft" by turning my saying into such nonsense that Jan thought it came from you. Unintended yes, but still a pita.

Well, I did f**k that completely up (typical) but my feelings as to the disagreeableness of that sentiment stand.
It's wholly my confusion.

[jancivil]

This went very wrong for me to see the sound designer on a movie compared in this 'either/or' with the same film's composer. This must be where I attributed a remark to the wrong person: playing, bad vs crafting something that isn't played, good. Hence composing bad, classical bad.