If you had to stick to one DAW, which one would it be?

[dellboy]

Regarding finishing songs off to a professional level, I would say every DAW can do that. It is only a difference of how fast they are and for me, speed is not critical as I am not in a high speed production work environment.

Bitwig would be more than good enough for my personal use.

By "professional" , I meant the sort of people who need - video - score page - external audio processing etc. That is the "workaround" bit that I mentioned. How would a pro use Bitwig and make up for the missing bits that they need to set music to video and produce a score page for an orchestra etc? I guess in the end they would have to export to Pro-Tools or something?

[Biscotto]

But then there is always the “mental bug” of the 10% missing in “your DAW” screwing up the great 90% built in “your DAW”.

That’s an incurable bug.

Antic… you will probably never heal from it.
Go make music and enjoy the Luxury of being able to afford all the toys you collected in the music medicine cabinet

Life is damn short.

[UltimateOutsider]

Life forced me to take a break from music for 3-4 years, but now that I'm back in the game I see that Ableton Live has grown up a bit. Real comping? VST3 support? Nice!

I'm still a Cubase user because I still have a lot of vintage hardware synths, I know the DAW well, and I think in piano roll- but Steinberg has made some nice quality-of-life improvements to Cubase and its plugins over the past few versions, as well. But if Steinberg just up and vanished one day, I think I'd have no problem settling back in with current-day Live.

[antic604]

...but antic doesn't use Grid etc. from Bitwig

I do, it's just that I don't use it to create generative, self-playing stuff like many are. I use it if it's faster to create a sound or effect in Grid than do it using 'normal' devices.

Although I like to experiment / have fun sometimes, too

[xbitz]

there should be some time counter on Bitwig devices to be able to track our activity in Bitwig

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

If I am honest, I really don't think I would want to go back to working in Orion now. As much as I still miss Wasp, Diffuse Delay, AD-1 and a few other things, I really enjoy using Studio One and feel like it brings out the best in our music.

Glad you found it, then. I miss the pattern arranger workflow. And yes, it came with enough stuff to keep the costs for third party stuff low. There was this balance between self-containment and open endedness, and the linear and pattern based appraoch, that appealed a lot to me. I actually finished my tunes. That was a new experience compared to my struggles with Cubase LE and the Cakewalk Sonar crashfest I was using then.

[jancivil]

well, the things Cubase doesn't do, or purportedly, I wouldn't know are things except for reading about it in this subforum of KVR. Whether it does 90% or 50% of what is possible technically, I'm not doing any of what's gone missing or interested. It seems like most of the action here now is driven by people that think a lot about features in the abstract according to what they read on fora and somehow think having it all is de rigeur. Arguing from the day job rather than wholly occupied in the making of music with the things.

On a practical level, for a long time Cubase on a Mac was too high-latency for what I do, denser arrangements wholly reliant on soft instruments; I finally bought Logic and Digital Performer in late '09. Then VE Pro quickly matured as the viable way to get orders of magnitude more playing in real time up, and Logic & DP were at the time not the more viable ways to connect to it.

[pdxindy]

...but antic doesn't use Grid etc. from Bitwig

I do, it's just that I don't use it to create generative, self-playing stuff like many are. I use it if it's faster to create a sound or effect in Grid than do it using 'normal' devices.

I have little to no interest in the complex generative stuff done in the Grid. I make simple synth patches that are fast and easy. For example, using the Sampler module to FM another Osc module. Or simple layering of a sample and wavetable. In a lot of cases, it is faster than using Instrument Layer.

[Trensharo]

Also, there are some things which are only half implemented. Like Maeckie HUI support.

Do agree with this. Setting up control surfaces can be a PITA. The workaround is to get a Nektar Controller with DAW integration for Cakewalk/SONAR. I do think they should at least implement Komplete Kontrol support, though.

Yeah, I think that's rather in the hands of NI though. Unfortunately, it also shows what they consider as "industry standard" DAW's (and which ones they don't...).

Cakewalk (SONAR) isn't really approaching DAWs like Cubase, DP, Logic, Live, FL Studio, etc. in terms of usage... So, if this requires work on NI's end, they are probably wise to ignore it for the time being. As I've stated, Nektar does have DAW integration with Cakewalk, so those users do have a choice with easy setup.

Cakewalk is pretty bad even when setting up controllers that have Mackie/HUI Emulation, much less Komplete Kontrol/Maschine controllers.

Beyond that, NI has a controller editor that allows you to map their controllers to any DAW. So, it's possible to map those controllers to Cakewalk without having to deal with the bad software side of things (on Cakewalk's end)...

Assuming the Cakewalk documentation covers the relevant material to get it done.

I assume the Mackie Control support in Cakewalk at least supports Transport, and that's really all you need with Native Instruments (or Maschine) controllers.

[antic604]

well, the things Cubase doesn't do, or purportedly, I wouldn't know are things except for reading about it in this subforum of KVR. Whether it does 90% or 50% of what is possible technically, I'm not doing any of what's gone missing or interested. It seems like most of the action here now is driven by people that think a lot about features in the abstract according to what they read on fora and somehow think having it all is de rigeur.

Naaah. Being intimately familiar with multiple DAWs simply opens your eyes to possible features and - more importantly - workflows you had no idea even existed. And that can push your music into directions you'd never venture into otherwise. Few examples:

• MIDI capture (in Live) - if like me you can't play keys to save your life, this is literally life saver I often fool around on keyboard to find some inspiration or ideas and when I find one I attempt to record it live, but for some reason whenever that red button's blinking I get nervous and my playing falls apart completely - I miss the notes, I go waay out of time, etc; MIDI capture lets me record a nearly perfect take in those moments when I don't feel the pressure. And things recorded live just sound differently than those painted with a mouse
• clip launcher side-by-side with linear arranger (in Bitwig) - I'm the type of person that "likes" to get everything perfect before I move to next section; this has (at least) 3 negative consequences: (1) it takes a lot of time, especially because I'm really into sound design, (2) by focusing on a vertical slice I lose the sight of the whole and it gets more difficult to move on, (3) because I've already spent a lot of time & made things "perfect", I'm kind of stuck and reluctant to make big changes to the arrangement, even though I know I should; starting in a clip launcher that's aligned with arranger feels like I'm still in a linear environment, but I'm really not - I can change the order of sections instantly and it's more difficult - although still possible - to obsess over details, especially transitions that always take a lot of energy from me; this helps to more quickly sketch the complete idea
• freestyle modulation & routing (in Bitwig, again) - when I came back to music in 2017 I was struck with awe when I got Ableton Live 9.7 Suite and later on Reason 10 at all the sound-design possibilities afforded by Racks and Combinator respectively and native modulation devices - LFOs, Env. Followers, Step Sequencers, etc. But while those are already a huge leap over Cubase, Studio One or Reaper in those aspects, they both pale in comparison how fast, effortless and intuitive it is in Bitwig. 4 years into using Bitwig, I cringe - and freeze fearing a crash - everythime I insert LFO in Live and I get paralyzed when I'm faced with untangling a web of CV cables in Reason when I need to adjust a complex patch. Few seemingly simple moves by Bitwig - modulator slots in every device, indifference to device order on a track, MIDI flowing through the device chain, hybrid tracks - make a huge difference: I can be much more daring and experimental with my sound design, the setup is much clearer and the projects are much smaller, as typically a single track in Bitwig would require 3-5 tracks to replicate in other DAWs

Still, on some level you're right - familiarity with other DAWs can easily lead to "I can't write music in X, because it doesn't have what Y has" and I have to constantly fight this temptation, simply by adjusting the projects to the strengths of the DAW I'm currently in.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

I use Logic. It's fine. I've tried a few other DAWs, but none of them have clicked yet. If I switch to something, it will have to run on Linux, and have deeply integrated support for working with voice leading, preferably by way of Roman numeral analysis.

I'm a little surprised not to see Renoise get its own poll option. I know a few people who swear by it, but maybe I'm in a weird bubble.

[Trensharo]

Regarding Cakewalk: They should concentrate on bringing the included plugins into the 21st century. That old DX stuff is really, really long in the tooth. Also visually.

Cakewalk has fabulous plug-ins, but they stopped distributing them with the DAW when it went free.

The stuff distributed with Cakewalk are legacy plug-ins.

They won't be updated, because they were already basically updated and replaced with better stuff in the past. They remained in the package for legacy reasons - so that later versions of Cakewalk could open projects created in earlier versions using those plugins.

When Cakewalk went free, they kept those and dropped the newer stuff. I don't think this is a huge issue, as many people use their own plug-ins anyways, even in DAWs with far superior stock plug-ins.

So, you're kind of missing the point, there, and asking for a pipe dream.

I don't think so. I enviously look at Cubase for its built in stuff, for example. Not for quality (I'm sure there is better third party stuff), but, how well it feels integrated in the DAW. Might sound pedantic, and superficial, but, I really do think that it's important to have a consistent feel, instead of stuff which just looks and feels alien in the DAW. E.g. I love that Cubase and Studio One show the EQ curve for the built in EQ's. That's a great touch, and feels as if the plugins are part of the features of the DAW.

I really think Cakewalk has some homework to do in that regard. Same with other DAW's, Mixcraft, for example.

The look and feel of a plug-in is really a subjective thing, and it has literally nothing to do with the functionality of the plugin, or its quality in that regard - i.e. the things that ACTUALLY matter.

I have Cubase Pro 11, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't even use most of the stock stuff because whatever "integration" it has is no match for iZotope's Inter Plug-in Communication and the way that stuff works together in a Mix Session, and I have other FX plug-ins that I got specifically for how well they work for specific tasks.

I also don't want to be a wizard with Cubase Stock Plug-ins and then a noob when I have to use Studio One... or anything else. What I use, is portable to any other DAW I may want or need to use.

Again, Cakewalk has great plug-ins. They just aren't being given away for free. BandLab removed them from the package when SONAR Platinum became Cakewalk by BandLab.

You're asking them to do work on legacy products, but ignoring the fact that the plug-ins in Cakewalk were replaced with far better products over a decade ago. They just aren't going to give them away to you, and why should they? They probably have plans to monetize them in the future.

Many DAWs have plug-ins that don't follow a strict design leveling policy. Studio One, Pro Tools, etc. are full of plug-ins that have different types of UIs and such.

In any case, MAGIX practically gave away Vintage Effects Suite, coreFX Suite, and wizardFX Suite on Humble Bundle in the past. Anyone who wanted some updated "stock plug-ins" for Cakewalk could (and probably should) have gotten them for the laughably low price asked, there (along with Sound Forge Pro 13).

[classic]

I would like to stick with Waveform, just because of some really nice features it has.
But is has some sort of unstabilletys that occure sometimes in different scenarios and its allways at points when it kills my creativity.
So If it would be as stable as Studio One it would be my DAW.

[chk071]

Regarding Cakewalk: They should concentrate on bringing the included plugins into the 21st century. That old DX stuff is really, really long in the tooth. Also visually.

Cakewalk has fabulous plug-ins, but they stopped distributing them with the DAW when it went free.

The stuff distributed with Cakewalk are legacy plug-ins.

They won't be updated, because they were already basically updated and replaced with better stuff in the past. They remained in the package for legacy reasons - so that later versions of Cakewalk could open projects created in earlier versions using those plugins.

When Cakewalk went free, they kept those and dropped the newer stuff. I don't think this is a huge issue, as many people use their own plug-ins anyways, even in DAWs with far superior stock plug-ins.

So, you're kind of missing the point, there, and asking for a pipe dream.

I don't think so. I enviously look at Cubase for its built in stuff, for example. Not for quality (I'm sure there is better third party stuff), but, how well it feels integrated in the DAW. Might sound pedantic, and superficial, but, I really do think that it's important to have a consistent feel, instead of stuff which just looks and feels alien in the DAW. E.g. I love that Cubase and Studio One show the EQ curve for the built in EQ's. That's a great touch, and feels as if the plugins are part of the features of the DAW.

I really think Cakewalk has some homework to do in that regard. Same with other DAW's, Mixcraft, for example.

The look and feel of a plug-in is really a subjective thing, and it has literally nothing to do with the functionality of the plugin, or its quality in that regard - i.e. the things that ACTUALLY matter.

I have Cubase Pro 11, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't even use most of the stock stuff because whatever "integration" it has is no match for iZotope's Inter Plug-in Communication and the way that stuff works together in a Mix Session, and I have other FX plug-ins that I got specifically for how well they work for specific tasks.

I also don't want to be a wizard with Cubase Stock Plug-ins and then a noob when I have to use Studio One... or anything else. What I use, is portable to any other DAW I may want or need to use.

Again, Cakewalk has great plug-ins. They just aren't being given away for free. BandLab removed them from the package when SONAR Platinum became Cakewalk by BandLab.

You're asking them to do work on legacy products, but ignoring the fact that the plug-ins in Cakewalk were replaced with far better products over a decade ago. They just aren't going to give them away to you, and why should they? They probably have plans to monetize them in the future.

What kind of argument is that? What matters is what's in the DAW now, not potentially in the future.

"They just aren't going to give them away to you, and why should they? They probably have plans to monetize them in the future."

So they give the DAW away for free, but keep the plugins in their vault, to release them as payware some day?

You're not making any sense, I'm afraid.

What's more likely is that those plugins were either developed by people who are no longer at Cakewalk, or they were licensed in some way they can't be licensed anymore in the free Cakewalk by Bandlab. Their instruments have been removed for the most part as well.

[machinesworking]

Great post, all of it. You know me too well!

Anyway, regarding that particular bit I quoted - the problem with Ableton is that it's very hard to work in it after you've 'tasted' Bitwig. It just feel very constrained and rigid, for some reason: audio editing workflow is terrible, clip launcher feels like a separate part of the DAW, there's no mixer to speak of, LFO/Shapes/Envelope steal your device controls, browser is very inefficient (other than for searching samples - this is leagues better in Live!), they have some brilliant devices but using Racks is a chore compared to Layers, Selectors and Splitters, and so on... And its CPU use is ridiculous.

With Reason it's easier - I'm keeping it even if it won't be my main. I've sunk too much money in 3rd party REs and even if I'd never upgraded my 11 Suite it's got more than enough sounds and devices for a lifetime

DP is horribly awkward in parts, it's one of the oldest DAWs out there. Clips are at this point still tacked on, they still don't feel 100% integrated. It still treats instruments and MIDI as separate tracks, track selection is really powerful but really complicated to get your head around. The "Arrangement Page" is split into two windows, it finally got some love from intelligent MIDI controllers, but nothing like what Bitwig and Live can do.

I still get more complex arrangements in it than I do in Bitwig and Live, which is in the end of the day all that matters. I jumped around a lot because I get bored and I end up getting overly annoyed at a perceived limitation in DP etc. This is the biggest thing, you talk the most about loving Reason, and getting work done in Live, so the choice is between those two.

I'm sticking with DP and Live, but it's not easy, mostly because I almost think of them the way I think of soft synths. I've always jumped between the "fun DAWs" and DP or Logic so it's nothing new. I don't think they have the best UX, that would be Bitwig and Logic, but DP and Live have features I want, that make me more productive, that I want to use in my music. It's all a compromise, so at some point you have to accept the limitations of the DAW you choose.