If you had to stick to one DAW, which one would it be?

[machinesworking]

For clarification, I write 90% of our lyrics but I hardly write any music. It doesn't feel like writer's block, though. I don't actually try to write stuff and the way I work makes it extremely unlikely that I would write anything new, in that I hardly ever just play around with instruments because it never feels like the best use of my time.

OK that explains a lot. You're not going to necessarily need much in terms of a DAW or any of it if you're mostly putting vocals and lyrics on someone else's arrangements.

I'm the opposite, I never write lyrics, or sing in any band I've ever been in, always guitar or keyboards/computer.

Except you're not going to keep all that knowledge in your head if you aren't using it every day.

You would be surprised. Plus, and this is big, knowing it's entirely possible with your DAW as opposed to looking through a manual trying to decipher that specific DAWs terms, (because unfortunately pretty much half of the terms for parts of a DAW are entirely specific to that DAW), then finding out you'll need to look somewhere else for that feature is far more of a creativity killer than forgetting a key command.

It sucks when this stuff is buried, I bought the MPC Live thinking I would use it as a workstation before realizing it's ability to program outside of 4/4 in stand alone mode is severely limited. Unfortunately most of the time manuals don't mention what a product can't do.

Do you guys not have any self-discipline? Do you have to play tricks on yourselves all the time? I could have a dozen different DAWs installed and I can guarantee you I would still spend 100% of my time using Studio One because it's the one in which I am most productive.

This is amusing coming from someone who admits their partner does all the songwriting. For the record I'm 90% of the time in DP. At this point the other DAWs are there for collaboration purposes. It's not that hard to work in other DAWs, but most musicians I know are less tech savvy than I am and the least amount of variables the better.

MIDI comping can solve a problem with off beat grooves. That's the first and best use I had for it. This is especially useful if you have a sound that overlaps legato style enough to not notice. It wouldn't be very useful for the kind of rigid 4/4 martial beat music you do.

[BONES]

OK that explains a lot. You're not going to necessarily need much in terms of a DAW or any of it if you're mostly putting vocals and lyrics on someone else's arrangements.

You're leaping to conclusions. I do most of the arranging as part of the production process. I do most of the sound design, too. The way it usually works is that Sik has the ideas, I turn them into songs and do all the production work. So I'm doing what I'd consider 95% of the work involved in finishing a song.

knowing it's entirely possible with your DAW as opposed to looking through a manual trying to decipher that specific DAWs terms, (because unfortunately pretty much half of the terms for parts of a DAW are entirely specific to that DAW), then finding out you'll need to look somewhere else for that feature is far more of a creativity killer than forgetting a key command.

Two points:
- this is only valid if you are using lots of different hosts. If you stick to one host it is irrelevant, and
- who goes looking for features? I have work to do, all I need to know is how to do it.

It's not hard and it doesn't need to be complicated, either. On the contrary, it's actually really easy, people used to do it with nothing more than a tape recorder and a mixing console. Mind you, if you were to believe YouTube, you'd think it's the most difficult thing ever (but you'd be wrong).

It sucks when this stuff is buried, I bought the MPC Live thinking I would use it as a workstation before realizing it's ability to program outside of 4/4 in stand alone mode is severely limited. Unfortunately most of the time manuals don't mention what a product can't do.

Surely common sense would have alerted you? It's very focussed on dance music.

This is amusing coming from someone who admits their partner does all the songwriting.

Who writes songs in a DAW? Surely you write songs with an instrument - a keyboard or a guitar or something - then you use the DAW to produce it? Like I said, the reason I don't do much writing is that I spend all my time in the DAW.

[LeVzi]

Well I voted Cubase in this poll, but with the potential Steinberg bollock dropping on the horizon, looks like I won't be able to.

So Studio One will have to be the next port of call. God knows if i'll stick with it.

[machinesworking]

OK that explains a lot. You're not going to necessarily need much in terms of a DAW or any of it if you're mostly putting vocals and lyrics on someone else's arrangements.

You're leaping to conclusions. I do most of the arranging as part of the production process. I do most of the sound design, too. The way it usually works is that Sik has the ideas, I turn them into songs and do all the production work. So I'm doing what I'd consider 95% of the work involved in finishing a song.

Hmm? IMO coming up with a complete set of parts for a song is where the work is. anyone can come up with a good 4 bar loop, making that loop into a song is the hard part. I enjoy being part of the arrangement process, but that's definitely where anyone writing vocal phrases and lyrics should naturally have more say. So I would in no way discredit what your partner brings to the table like you're doing here.

Two points:
- this is only valid if you are using lots of different hosts. If you stick to one host it is irrelevant, and
- who goes looking for features? I have work to do, all I need to know is how to do it.

1 It's absolutely relevant to know the capabilities of the software you use, especially if it's the only one you use. What a preposterous position.

2 You're not using the DAW in the song writing process as you've mentioned. So I know DP well enough to know that after all the MIDI is laid down there's functions in it to erase the C3 note on beat 3 between bars 48 and 96 if I need to, as opposed to you who using DP wouldn't know that because you didn't bother reading through the manual to that level. So you would repeat a task 48 times as opposed to typing in a few commands. Before you ask why this is useful, specifically it can held to add variation to drum tracks among other things.

Who writes songs in a DAW? Surely you write songs with an instrument - a keyboard or a guitar or something - then you use the DAW to produce it? Like I said, the reason I don't do much writing is that I spend all my time in the DAW.

We've talked about this before, but your'e aware that plenty of people write entirely in a DAW are you not?

As a guitar player first, then bass, and keys, I write about half in the DAW half out. I've come up with songs based on a sampler crash, the digital noise left over recorded into a track then processed into something resembling a beat or melody. I've done a lot of work with audio mangling that ends up becoming part of the writing process. So yeah, I write in the DAW using what a DAW can do to push me in different directions if I want to go there. This is why I'm not surprised at all that the "creative" DAWs like Bitwig and Live hold no interest for you, they aren't so much about arranging and mixing as they are about using the DAW as a sequencer and über sampler. In fact compared to DP, Studio One, and Cubase they're amateurish in those areas. (They're good enough for most people though)

[Tj Shredder]

Midi comping is obviously coming to BW.

Now that I understand what you're talking about, why would you need comping for MIDI clips when you can just go in and fix them up? Honestly, it seems like the stupidest idea ever.

I guess its hard for you to put yourself in someone else's position, and that, though you do have an expressive controller to play electronic instruments.
No, you can’t fix up expressivity in a timely manner, its hundred times faster to play it again and comp…
Btw. I would not call you stupid for that obvious lack of empathy, its just your nature and I like you as you are
There is no need to call anything stupid ever, it does not make your intelligence shine, even if its there…

[flori89]

Studio One till the end.

[tibah]

Still on Bitwig 1...

[antic604]

Studio One till the end.

Yours or Studio One's?

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

I do most of the arranging as part of the production process. I do most of the sound design, too. The way it usually works is that Sik has the ideas, I turn them into songs and do all the production work. So I'm doing what I'd consider 95% of the work involved in finishing a song.

Sounds like a great deal for Sik. I did kind of the same for a guitar mate back in the 90s. It does not feel like hard work if you fancy the ideas. I did not always, tho, but arranged them for his sake then. However, my impression has been that you add to the idea pool as well, so I guess it is not "that" one-sided?

Godspeed to you two.

[ramseysounds]

Cubase user for about 15 years here. No brainer for me. May change when they drop VST2.

[BONES]

Hmm? IMO coming up with a complete set of parts for a song is where the work is. anyone can come up with a good 4 bar loop, making that loop into a song is the hard part.

I don't find that at all. Not that we do "4 bar loops", he usually gives me something that runs for a minute or two, often a bit of theme and variation, and I take the bits I like and turn it into a song. The most "writing" I might have to do is to make a chorus, the rest is arrangement, patching and mixing.

I enjoy being part of the arrangement process, but that's definitely where anyone writing vocal phrases and lyrics should naturally have more say.

I mostly write lyrics to fit the arrangement, rather than arrange to fit the lyrics, but that's because I usually don't write any lyrics until months after I've finished mixing the music. Even though we are deliberately changing that for the next album and finishing one song before we move onto the next, it's a hard habit to break.

So I would in no way discredit what your partner brings to the table like you're doing here.

Actually, that's what you've just been doing. As far as I'm concerned, he is the songwriter, I'm just the monkey who does all the scut work to turn it into a song. That said, when I write a song, the inspiration happens in a flash and from there it's usually just an hour or so until I've got something to work with in the DAW. It tends to happen fairly easily, it's definitely not a large part of the process for me. Getting to the flash can take a long time, which is why I'm not that interested in it, but once I've had that flash, I find it falls out of my head pretty quickly. I think it's a big part of why Sik and I work so well together - he enjoys the bits I find tiresome and I'm OCD enough to get stuck into the rest of it, which leaves him free to keep experimenting.

1 It's absolutely relevant to know the capabilities of the software you use, especially if it's the only one you use. What a preposterous position.

Well I must be f**king up left, right and centre because I reckon I probably only know about 10% of Studio One and I knew even lass than that of Cubase when I used it to produce our last album. What's important is that you understand the production process, with that knowledge you can do what needs to be done without having to obsess over features or tools.

2 You're not using the DAW in the song writing process as you've mentioned. So I know DP well enough to know that after all the MIDI is laid down there's functions in it to erase the C3 note on beat 3 between bars 48 and 96 if I need to, as opposed to you who using DP wouldn't know that because you didn't bother reading through the manual to that level. So you would repeat a task 48 times as opposed to typing in a few commands.

Actually, I'd delete all but Bar 48 in one go, delete the note there and then hold down "D" until it had copied the pattern back out to Bar 96. Or I'd use a pattern so I only had to change it once. I'm rarely in a hurry when I'm working. I like to do things longhand, it gives me time to ruminate on what I've done and where I'm going. I don't really use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, even, I prefer to do it the hard way. It is a creative endeavour, after all, not a mechanical process.

your'e aware that plenty of people write entirely in a DAW are you not?

No, not really. I get the impression most people play stuff into their DAW, rather than input it with a mouse.

I guess its hard for you to put yourself in someone else's position, and that, though you do have an expressive controller to play electronic instruments.

No, you can’t fix up expressivity in a timely manner, its hundred times faster to play it again and comp…

Never heard of quantize?

There is no need to call anything stupid ever, it does not make your intelligence shine, even if its there…

There is no point in denying stupidity, it just leads to more and greater stupidity. Best to nip it in the bud if you can.

Sounds like a great deal for Sik. I did kind of the same for a guitar mate back in the 90s.

Great for both of us as I do not enjoy futzing around, trying to find inspiration. I much prefer to have something in front of me I can get to work on. A blank canvas has never held any appeal for me.

It does not feel like hard work if you fancy the ideas. I did not always, tho, but arranged them for his sake then. However, my impression has been that you add to the idea pool as well, so I guess it is not "that" one-sided?

It's not at all. In fact I think it has evolved over the years into the perfect collaboration, to the point that I don't really want to write any new songs because the results are always better when we have both contributed roughly equally.

[machinesworking]

I don't find that at all. Not that we do "4 bar loops", he usually gives me something that runs for a minute or two, often a bit of theme and variation, and I take the bits I like and turn it into a song. The most "writing" I might have to do is to make a chorus, the rest is arrangement, patching and mixing.

One of the great advantages of writing as a team is what you describe here. It's I've always found much easier to come up with a bridge break or chorus to finish out a couple song ideas for your partner than it is to do it all yourself. Especially great when you find someone you aren't arguing details about with.

I mostly write lyrics to fit the arrangement, rather than arrange to fit the lyrics, but that's because I usually don't write any lyrics until months after I've finished mixing the music. Even though we are deliberately changing that for the next album and finishing one song before we move onto the next, it's a hard habit to break.

As someone who mostly writes music that works with vocals, it's always great when someone is willing to work with your arrangement. I've always presented complete songs to vocalists, and mostly they just ask for minor changes, maybe double or half the length of the break etc.

So I would in no way discredit what your partner brings to the table like you're doing here.

Actually, that's what you've just been doing. As far as I'm concerned, he is the songwriter, I'm just the monkey who does all the scut work to turn it into a song. That said, when I write a song, the inspiration happens in a flash and from there it's usually just an hour or so until I've got something to work with in the DAW. It tends to happen fairly easily, it's definitely not a large part of the process for me. Getting to the flash can take a long time, which is why I'm not that interested in it, but once I've had that flash, I find it falls out of my head pretty quickly. I think it's a big part of why Sik and I work so well together - he enjoys the bits I find tiresome and I'm OCD enough to get stuck into the rest of it, which leaves him free to keep experimenting.

No, you claimed to do 95% of the work, which clearly discredits his contribution. I never mentioned it at all.

Then here at the end you admit that flashes of writing don't happen as often with you, that's fine, but you're literally relying on instant gratification writing, the song done in 24 hours kind, that's normally not how it works, it's the 1 in 6 or so songs version of how I and most people write. the other 5 are song ideas that stay around for a long time, and either never get used or become songs. which leads to the next point..

1 It's absolutely relevant to know the capabilities of the software you use, especially if it's the only one you use. What a preposterous position.

Well I must be f**king up left, right and centre because I reckon I probably only know about 10% of Studio One and I knew even lass than that of Cubase when I used it to produce our last album. What's important is that you understand the production process, with that knowledge you can do what needs to be done without having to obsess over features or tools.

You're not getting it, the speed at which you can get ideas down can directly affect your creative process. Knowing 10% of a DAW you can of course get things done, but at some point you're bogged down by your lack of knowledge. You're basically arguing that you only need to know bar chords, which is IMO a tired position, played out. Know your instrument, know your DAW.

2 You're not using the DAW in the song writing process as you've mentioned. So I know DP well enough to know that after all the MIDI is laid down there's functions in it to erase the C3 note on beat 3 between bars 48 and 96 if I need to, as opposed to you who using DP wouldn't know that because you didn't bother reading through the manual to that level. So you would repeat a task 48 times as opposed to typing in a few commands.

Actually, I'd delete all but Bar 48 in one go, delete the note there and then hold down "D" until it had copied the pattern back out to Bar 96. Or I'd use a pattern so I only had to change it once. I'm rarely in a hurry when I'm working. I like to do things longhand, it gives me time to ruminate on what I've done and where I'm going. I don't really use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, even, I prefer to do it the hard way. It is a creative endeavour, after all, not a mechanical process.

this works, if all 48 bars are identical, which when I used this feature was not true.
So knowing this had me back to finishing up the song instead of spending time doing a "mechanical process" deleting single notes for an hour or so.

You should read the manual of your DAW, that you're arguing against this is just some wild silliness.

your'e aware that plenty of people write entirely in a DAW are you not?

No, not really. I get the impression most people play stuff into their DAW, rather than input it with a mouse.

Yeah you would be wrong about that. The amount of people I run into who went from DJing to working in a DAW, who can't play an instrument at all is pretty huge, it's why 24 key controllers are so popular, all people are using them for is to get something to quantize to death. I'm not knocking this, if my hand gets cut off in an accident I'm joining them. Point is there's a lot more pencil tool in a piano roll composers than you think. For certain things, it's actually a great way to work.

[AnX]

I really don't know why anyone would need to use more than one host....I doubt there is a good reason

[antic604]

...I doubt there is a good reason

Reason 11 Suite is pretty good. It's likely the best Reason we'll ever get

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Sounds like a great deal for Sik. I did kind of the same for a guitar mate back in the 90s.

Great for both of us as I do not enjoy futzing around, trying to find inspiration. I much prefer to have something in front of me I can get to work on. A blank canvas has never held any appeal for me.

Well, I recently experienced the benefits of that again by diving into one of Vurt's nightmares for inspiration and made a tune in a week (Jotuns). Usually it takes at least a couple of months. I am working on some harmonies and melodies arising from looping Jan for the moment. Well, I like your and Sik's 90 EBM basslines too. They are right in my pocket. If you happen to have an unused one aorund, or just a used one you like to share, it will be a pleasure for me to use it as base for another electro folk tune. Just an open offer, not at least to show a little appreciation of your music. Oldschool EBM is my youth too.