Is talent born or created with hard work and practice

[JamminFool]

My biggest "talents" were probably my learned musical knowledge, quickness at learning anything, good ear, determination, willingness and eagerness to play, and being (mostly) easy to work with/team player.

exactly. that is your talent. someone else might be envious of that.

Both I'd say. But you can get there with practice dedication and hard work.

True to both, but I guess my underlying point was that I don't feel like it had much to do with "being born with it" in my case. For me, it's always been about my own personal goals and motivation. I can trace that back to my childhood and remembering specific artists, songs, and performances that inspired me to want to make music, coupled with my family and friends always encouraging me to chase my dreams. I don't feel like any of that (i.e., motivation or musicianship) was some god-gifted natural talent that I was born with. Then again, I guess I have no way of refuting that some of it was possibly inherent.

at the very least, quickness at learning anything, and a good ear, are certainly something you were born with.

I was quick at running but then I started smoking weed at age 11 and properly with my father when I was 14 which made me gonky
So that's bullshit

huh? what does this mean?

most of what you type strikes me as bullshit.

[matrixo9]

My biggest "talents" were probably my learned musical knowledge, quickness at learning anything, good ear, determination, willingness and eagerness to play, and being (mostly) easy to work with/team player.

exactly. that is your talent. someone else might be envious of that.

Both I'd say. But you can get there with practice dedication and hard work.

True to both, but I guess my underlying point was that I don't feel like it had much to do with "being born with it" in my case. For me, it's always been about my own personal goals and motivation. I can trace that back to my childhood and remembering specific artists, songs, and performances that inspired me to want to make music, coupled with my family and friends always encouraging me to chase my dreams. I don't feel like any of that (i.e., motivation or musicianship) was some god-gifted natural talent that I was born with. Then again, I guess I have no way of refuting that some of it was possibly inherent.

at the very least, quickness at learning anything, and a good ear, are certainly something you were born with.

I was quick at running but then I started smoking weed at age 11 and properly with my father when I was 14 which made me gonky
So that's bullshit

huh? what does this mean?

most of what you type strikes me as bullshit.

I mean I was quick at stuff perceptive then I started smoking weed which slowed down my brain
Sorry should have thought that word may not translate

No not bullshit I'm just not very talented at written English
and grammar

[JamminFool]

Sorry should have thought that word may not translate

i didn't have a problem with any of the words. it was how they were strung together to make what you thought was an effective argument that what i had stated was bullshit.

[Hink]

If I had to work hard at stuff, I'd never accomplish anything I don't think that
somehow invalidates anything I do though...

I do think I can never be as good of an artist for instance, as someone who works hard and
dedicates themselves to that. Not without doing the same anyway...

https://www.iloboyou.com/ridiculous-pai ... -millions/

Well that's one thing about art for sure. I have always thought that being successful as an artist is very similar to selling real-estate. It's mostly about schmoozing, one reason I don't do it for a living.

yeah that might be a sore subject with me coming up You see I love where I live, I really a lot about the house and of course my yard. But the fact is I bought a flip house and I keep discovering polished turds and there will be more to come.

That's my fault though, buying my first house at 57 It still has good bones, great location and we are putting a lot of money in the house this spring and summer (we just determined our budget to be low 6 figures) it will be done right

[Hink]

My biggest "talents" were probably my learned musical knowledge, quickness at learning anything, good ear, determination, willingness and eagerness to play, and being (mostly) easy to work with/team player.

exactly. that is your talent. someone else might be envious of that.

Both I'd say. But you can get there with practice dedication and hard work.

True to both, but I guess my underlying point was that I don't feel like it had much to do with "being born with it" in my case. For me, it's always been about my own personal goals and motivation. I can trace that back to my childhood and remembering specific artists, songs, and performances that inspired me to want to make music, coupled with my family and friends always encouraging me to chase my dreams. I don't feel like any of that (i.e., motivation or musicianship) was some god-gifted natural talent that I was born with. Then again, I guess I have no way of refuting that some of it was possibly inherent.

at the very least, quickness at learning anything, and a good ear, are certainly something you were born with.

those are physical attributes, it's what sets us apart from each other and exactly the reason we should come together to put our differences together and become more productive.

For instance unless you have hearing loss a good ear is pretty much just having good audio perception and that is a learned/developed skill. Take perfect pitch, just because one can recognize the tones precisely does not in fact mean they have great hearing or even good hearing, they just perceive what others cant and cannot yet.

[ShawnG]

I'm not sure what sort of magical thinking you have to indulge in to think there's some sort of absolute yes/no answer to this question. on one side, anybody that is good at anything was born that way, and on the other, thinking that we all roll out of the womb as perfectly identical balls of clay that can do anything. both are bullshit, and both are damaging to believe in. sure, we want our kids to work at what they want to do in life, and not let setbacks lead us to conclude that their failure is preordained. we also don't want our kids to believe that if they don't measure up in some way, after working their ass off, that it's all their fault for either being lazy or "not wanting it enough". My wife's life work is in educating children with special needs. we don't all get the same shot, folks. She teaches her kids to work as hard as they can to do what they can, but each of her students has an upper limit, it's unfortunate, but true.

Talent and genetics are real things. full stop. It's just not likely to be the determining factor in whether you end up being ultimately successful or not. Hard work, and determination are the vast bulk of what makes you a "success", but whether that success is "lower division regular player" or "champions league hero" or "Leo Messi" is certainly not due to sheer hard work and determination alone.

The Great thing about music in particular, as opposed to football/soccer, is that it isn't a competition (or shouldn't be). you don't have to be the "best" musician to be a musician. Work hard, be as good as you can be, be genuine, and use 110 percent of what you have available.

[JamminFool]

exactly.

[Biome_Digital]

Both

[thecontrolcentre]

Someone used to rock a sig here that said "Hard work, Talent & Guts" ... talent alone wont help you "succeed". You have to work at it and have the guts to push on against the odds imho.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Whatever it is, it sure ain’t a matter of opinion. It is not like the truth will depend on that of the majority. Look to gene research and see if you can come up with something useful if you want to look smart on this. The answers given here are just conjecture at this stage.

[Hink]

Someone used to rock a sig here that said "Hard work, Talent & Guts" ... talent alone wont help you "succeed". You have to work at it and have the guts to push on against the odds imho.

but there you have it...succeed...succeed at what? And what odds? (seems to suggest visions of grandeur which is fine) Who defines success? If you read my first post it is about music being quite personal to me, when I have had the biggest hardships in my life it's my music that I turn to get me through, I celebrate with music...it puts me at peace, it helps me cope...I havent been in a band since the 80's because frankly I cant stand being with musicians for that long, I said it before and I'll say it again, I am not a showman, I am not motivated by money...but sometimes I just need to play and at 62 years old, everything I have asked of my music it has delivered and then some, that' success imo.

My first post I addressed this, "Hard work, Talent & Guts", that's what I call being passionate about something, and my music is my passion that I have loved for half a century, that's success imo. I dont aim to better than anyone, but I do aim to grow in my passion which I have done with plenty of success imo.

The question was changed to is talent born...well no one will convince me that we are born with talent, well one person can...the one who comes out of the womb and explains it to me that day because after that we are subject to every single thing around us and how we perceive them.

[BONES]

Those no real changing your mind

I'm a scientist, mate, you can change my mind by presenting compelling evidence. All you've got is a chip on your shoulder because of the way you think your dad treated you and a bucketload of wishful thinking. You have made it very clear that you want to blame someone else for your own perceived lack of success.

You sound like one of those people that has decided there right

Well, actually, this is something that I have thought about for 40 years or more. You see, when I was a young lad doing officer training in the Army, we had a formal discussion one afternoon about whether leaders were born or made. Good pints were made for each argument but, at the end of the session, the Major running it pointed out that we had all gone through a rigorous selection process which culminated in exercises designed to reveal our innate leadership skills. We were all ultimately selected on the basis of our leadership potential because over hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years of bitter experience, the Army knows that real leaders are born, not made.

I just said somewhere inside you lacks the belief for you to progress like your friend

You're a) assuming I would want to (I don't) and b) ignoring the fact that he is better than me without trying, so it stands to reason that if he tried, he would always be better than me because he clearly has an innate advantage. That will always hold true - if two people do all the same training and practice, one of them will always be better than the other and the only way to explain that is that they are born with greater ability. Again, if that wasn't the case, everyone in a professional sporting team would have exactly the same level of skill, yet we all see for ourselves that some players are better than others. That's not because they work harder or train harder, it's because they have more talent.

Oh and when was good singing about being loud and belting ?
Isn't that subjective ?

No, it's about confidence. Try doing Opera without belting it out, or even Blues. If you want be thought of as a good singer, you have to be able to manage it without a microphone. Any idiot can whisper a tune, it doesn't require any talent at all.

You sound like your the world's best vocal coach or singer

Except that I have said several times that I am not. I do know, though, that I have a good voice and with coaching I imagine I could become a good singer. But, again, I'm not interested, I only need to be good enough to do what I do. If you listen to my vocal in the chorus of this song, at about 38 seconds, you can hear that I'm struggling for a consistent level and the phrasing is a little strained. There is no way I'd release this song unless/until I can get around that limitation of my singing. I reckon I can get away with it live, though, which is enough for now.
https://soundcloud.com/user-365521/we-stood-still-wip

I much prefer Gabrielle aplin to Adele and singers like Lauren aquilaina as opposed to Adele loud big style

So what? You're not the arbiter of what makes a good singer. Like I said, Adele could sing like Ms Aplin but I doubt Ms Aplin would have a hope in hell of singing like Adele. That makes Adele the better singer in pretty much everyone's eyes. You don't have to be a fan to acknowledge this. I can't stand Adele, although the Aplin woman sounds even more hideous/annoying/generic/boring.

it is about breathing control not always about being loud there's many different types of singers

Yeah, like good and bad and the good ones can sing in any style that's required, the bad ones do their tiny little voice thing because that's all their talent allows. The Aplin woman sound slike a child singing a nursery rhyme.

But TONE is important Adele's is shaped by the thickness of her cockney accent she talks loud and big and that has come from growing up around her family in South London

No, she sings like that because she can. And she can because she has a talent. Think of runners - someone who can run 100m in 10 seconds can also run it in 20 seconds. In the same way, someone with a voice talent like Adele's (the 10sec runner) can also sing like Ms Aplin (the 20sec runner). They don't because they can do better.

I have many women like her in my family with that big cackly voice , I don't much have a fondness for it

Again, so what? It's not about what you like, it's about objective reality. You might prefer little girls singing nursery rhymes but you still have to be able to acknowledge that Adele can sing the f**king house down. If you can't there is something wrong with your brain.

In the same my voice is chill and laid back so I much prefer smoother voices as opposed to big ones

Nobody f**king cares what you prefer, mate, it's irrelevant.

I don't like shouting rock music but a lot of people do ( well I used to lol oasis but I prefer Noel tbh)

Neither do I but I have no problem acknowledging that Steven Tyler and Jimmy Barnes can sing really well.

And when you say setting your kid up to fail That is the worst one you are saying right there
Because your telling your kid to stop before he started

Only if you're a fuckwit. You support your kids, you give them what encouragement they need but you also keep them grounded in reality. You help them set reachable goals. You don't tell them they can be the next Ronaldo or Messi, even if you think maybe they can. You give them achievable goals, one at a time. You get them playing rep footy for the area, then for the city, then you help them get into a semi-pro squad and then a pro squad, assuming they are good enough and want to do it. From there it's up to them and their talent to see how far they go. OTOH, if you tell them they can be the next Messi and they miss out on something like the national under 19s or whatever, you've just failed them. Their confidence is shot because you led them to believe anything was possible but now they see that there are limits to their talent and that other players with more talent are ahead of them for selection. Mind you, they'll know much better than you what their limitations are, they'll learn pretty quickly what is and isn't achievable and you'll just end up looking clueless in their eyes.

Bones just stop it man you sound like the dad's who are just happy to be
You sound like one of those geezers that has to b correct

No, I simply need to see some credible evidence, not just wishful thinking, before I will change my mind. I've given you now somewhere near a dozen examples and you've ignored them all and gone off on a ridiculous tangent about what your personal preferences are. You need to get your head out of your arse and look at the world the way it really is.

weekend and getting beaten 3-0 he played for a good team that won 8-0

I can't say I ever enjoyed winning 8-0. It gets very hard to maintain any interest once you get to about 4-0, especially if it's not even half-time yet. I'd get a lot more enjoyment losing 2-1 in a really tight game than flogging a hapless opposition.

And about the height thing , there are exceptions to the rule , and if he was 5.4 I'd tell him to push into midfield but at 5.9/5.10 as a 14 year old

There you go, pushing him in a direction that suits his talents. Well done!

Your attitude bones is I can do this this is me
And that's not defined or pre destined

That's right, I forge my own path. I never wanted to sound like anyone but me. Any uniqueness in what I do comes from playing to my strengths and understanding my limitations. 99% of the population will hate what I do, will feel compelled to leave the room when we start playing, so what? I'm not doing it for them, I'm doing it for myself and if you stay true to that, you will find an audience, as we have. It isn't enough that we can do it full time but it's enough that we can keep doing it, knowing some opportunities will come our way.

Your bones the geezer because of where you from who you grew up around what shaped and defined you

No, I am who I am because of my genes. That has been made very plain to me by my sister, who is adopted. She grew up in the same household as my brother and I, went to the same schools, etc., but she could not be a more different person. However, since meeting her birth father, who lives on the other side of the country and didn't meet her until she was in her 20s, it is really plain to see how much like his her personality is. She has settled the nature versus nurture debate for me, once and for all.

But I refuse to believe that we are pre destined by DNA

Your refusal doesn't change facts.

As I said musicians who have been successful don't come out and talk like this I've spoke to a couple

As I said yesterday, there are plenty of successful musicians with little or no talent and plenty of talented musicians who never achieve any level of success. BTW, I remembered the name of the band that brilliant drummer was in; they were The Joneses and the prodigious talent of their drummer - best I have ever seen - didn't lead to any success for them.

"Thy have the attitude anyone can do this "

Sounds like humility to me. I mean, what sort of dickhead would tell you they were the greatest and nobody else would ever be as good as them?

I've seen singers down the pub who can belt like Adele on the weekly in pubs like Adele maybe even better than her she isn't special ( she is good )

Exactly! She has talent and ambition/drive so she put in the hard work to make it in the big time, where the singer down the pub has the talent but probably not the ambition/drive. You need both to be successful.

[BONES]

We're jut going around in circles two people trying to talk over each other not listening

That's because you are rejecting perfectly reasonable opinions without providing any evidence to refute them. We're being realistic, you're living in some la-la land full of unicorns and rainbows.

Sure ok look let's have kid a and kid b
Kid a may learn things quicker than kid b because he thinks on his feet is confident , and kid b drags his feet a little is laid back not in a rush On paper one may look like he has more talent and aptitude but doesn't anyone look in five years whether kid b will become the better ?

Alright, here's a different way of looking at it. Neither kid has ever seen a cricket ball in his life or been taught how to catch, until someone throws one at them, really hard. Kid A catches the ball easily while Kid B almost dislocates his thumb because he's really lousy at catching. In cricket parlance we'd say Kid A has soft hands while Kid B does not. With training, Kid B could learn how to catch effectively but he'll never look as effortless and graceful as Kid A, no matter how good a cricketer he ends up being. That's why I love cricket - because the absolute best can do things ordinary people will never be able to do. Talent is why the best catchers are almost exclusively batsman, because it's a matter of superior hand-eye coordination that simply cannot be acquired, it has to be there in that person's genetic make-up.

Imagine kid a got accepted by man United academy , because he was faster better than kid a in the beginning kid b was slower etc not as fit
6 years pass , kid a gets dropped by Manchester United gives up football does something else
Kid b in the meantime has been working hard at lower league because he never gave up and is back in the league with Leeds United
Who is more talented here ?

Again, you are confusing success with talent, Maybe Kid A got frustrated at the low level of talent of his team-mates and decided to give it away because he was bored? He's still got the talent, he just doesn't want to bother with it any more. Again, I'd point you to Nick Kyrgios as an example of someone not living up to his potential.

We don't all show promise at first , some kids / people get REAL talent by dedication

No, they don't. They reach their limitations long before someone with real talent does. Kid B might end up playing for Leeds Utd but Kid A could have been good enough to play for England if he'd worked as hard as Kid B.

Alright, if you don't believe there is any such thing as talent, how do you account for Ronaldo? He was born into poverty on an island of 200,000 people, with an alcoholic father. If not for his massive natural talent, he would never have achieved anything, yet at 37 he is still one of, if not the best player currently playing. If talent could be acquired, why hasn't his ability been equalled by hundreds of others by now? One reason - talent. He's a once in a lifetime freak of nature and he proves, conclusively, that talent cannot be acquired.

[BONES]

Im terrible at writing at the moment but I quite like this essay https://believeperform.com/are-top-athl ... n-or-made/

The same guy directly contradicts himself with this article, in which he says -
"Our youth has many dreams and aspirations. Lots of young boys dream of scoring the winning goal in the Champions League final or win the World Cup with their country. Their dream: being a professional football player. In football only a few children become a professional football player. So talent recognition, especially in the youth departments, is a very important but delicate aspect."

Take languages for instance. If you're born to a multilingual family or culture and have constant exposure to multiple languages, you're going to be better on average at learning new ones than a white kid in an English-only household in Ohio.

That's a poor example because kids up to about 5 years of age learn language in a different way, so if you are exposed to multiple languages at a young age, you have an advantage. Learning languages at an older age will be equally difficult for most of us.

They are bitter they haven't made it big

What is your obsession with "making it big"? I have absolutely zero interest in "making it big" for the simple reason that the most popular things are never the best things. Therefore, being good is far more important to me than "making it big". And in what we do, we are as good as anyone else doing it, the reviews say so time and again.

All the ones who make it say u can do it

Who gives a flying f**k what other people say? What the f**k do they know?

I'm not famous because I never tried

Sorry, that's not how it works. Plenty of (sad, pathetic) people try their whole lives and never achieve fame. Others achieve fame without ever seeking it (Steven Hawking is an excellent example).

I don't believe in myself enough up until this moment of time

A lot of famous people are unbelievably insecure. They seek fame as a means of boosting their self-esteem, not as a result of having it. Their egos need constant reinforcement, like Donald Trump, for example.

[Hink]

Whatever it is, it sure ain’t a matter of opinion. It is not like the truth will depend on that of the majority. Look to gene research and see if you can come up with something useful if you want to look smart on this. The answers given here are just conjecture at this stage.

I gotta admit I dont get on with genetics (not saying I dont believe in them), it's a confusing concept for me. I was adopted at birth (and always knew I was adopted), I was terribly stricken with staph infection (probably didnt spell that right) and almost died, which also caused me to develop epilepsy. (as a child I had frequent seizures though I dont remember any of them) Through some miracle at the age of 5 or 6 I had my tonsils and adenoids out and after that I had no more seizures, by the age of 9 I was off phenobarbital and dilantunum (no idea on the latter spelling).

I had one sibling, she was 2 years older, also adopted and of course not biologically related. We were quite distant, I describe my childhood as two only children raised in the same house by the same parents.

Both my parents were only children, that may not seem like much but seriously it's very strange and less people who looked like my mom and dad as well adding to confusion. My friends you could see them looking like their dad but literally my dad looked like andy taylor and I was a small blond hair boy.

At this point all my family has passed away, even distant relatives I had here in Maine, I'm kind of the definitive loner. I came into the world alone, snatched away from who I thought would nurture me protect me, had serious trauma from illness and all in my first few days and no bio mom, yah know what I mean...that's alone...you know what else it is? The ultimate trauma, a primal wound (great book btw). And now I am left to myself again (well I did just get married, so not all alone ).

With that said I dont think it unreasonable for me to have quite a different perspective on genetics, it's quite possible I have deeply felt that I had to fight for every morsel of growth and trust me I failed more often than I succeeded. I wasnt born with any other magic gift to get through that than anyone else. I did however have the great fortune of having an amazing adoptive family, I grew up in a town with a rep (to this day) of being strong on education (Bedford Massachusetts).

But still the fact is I am not buying that my survival and success in this world had anything to do with whatever biological creature I developed in. I was born with nothing but a single breath, I've kept it going since. It was also very much thanx to the love and guidance two caring people... and I did my way