Pigments 3.5 vs Dune 3.5

[Introspective]

Have you tried layering Pigments in Analog Lab? It works really well, particularly as you are not limited to Pigments for your second layer and can throw in an old transistor organ for instance underneath your poly-rhythmic granular sequence.

PROTIP: You can also layer in your DAW! You're not limited to Arturia synths!

*gasp!*

(Sorry, I am STILL dying on the "layers in VSTs are lame" hill.)

[tactile_coast]

Have you tried layering Pigments in Analog Lab? It works really well, particularly as you are not limited to Pigments for your second layer and can throw in an old transistor organ for instance underneath your poly-rhythmic granular sequence.

PROTIP: You can also layer in your DAW! You're not limited to Arturia synths!

*gasp!*

(Sorry, I am STILL dying on the "layers in VSTs are lame" hill.)

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset nor as quick and easy as Analog Lab makes it. Relevant because the majority of presets in Dune have at least 2 layers so in a way a lot of the discussion in this thread is about whether people prefer the presets from a synth which is mostly pre-layered vs Pigments which is arguably easier to create your own layers.

Personally I've got both and like using both, they are different enough to justify owning together.

[pdxindy]

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset nor as quick and easy as Analog Lab makes it.

Depends on the DAW... In Bitwig it is both easy and way more powerful (same for Live). You can save it as a layered preset just like any synth.

I only make single layer presets in Dune and if I want layering, I do it in the DAW.

[CausticPuppy]

I think a lot of that has to do with Dune allowing more layers (up to 8!) and having good FX. One patch could take up your entire mix.

Have you tried layering Pigments in Analog Lab? It works really well, particularly as you are not limited to Pigments for your second layer and can throw in an old transistor organ for instance underneath your poly-rhythmic granular sequence. It gives a lot more creative potential and is a lot easier to use than Dunes pre layered patches which though sound good out of the box are quite clunky to navigate and don't let you audition new sounds against each other instantly like you can with AL.

I don't own AL but I've used the demo before - and it does make it easy to try layering different sounds.
But but that's just to find out which sounds work well together. In my DAW I use stacks to organize instruments, but rarely to play the entire stack at once. If I want multiple layers I record them separately, or copy/paste to make one layer duplicate another.

[CausticPuppy]

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset nor as quick and easy as Analog Lab makes it.

Depends on the DAW... In Bitwig it is both easy and way more powerful (same for Live). You can save it as a layered preset just like any synth.

I only make single layer presets in Dune and if I want layering, I do it in the DAW.

A pre-layered patch can certainly spark inspiration. But ultimately it's harder to work it into a track. This was one of the reasons I sold my Wavestate - it's capable of such complexity and layering that it essentially HAS to become your entire mix unless you strip it down to just single layers, which defeats the purpose of having multi-layer support. Sort of like trying to cook a dinner from scratch using fully dressed hot dogs as an ingredient. No matter what you decide to cook, the end result is still going to be hot dogs.

[AnX]

Have you tried layering Pigments in Analog Lab? It works really well, particularly as you are not limited to Pigments for your second layer and can throw in an old transistor organ for instance underneath your poly-rhythmic granular sequence.

PROTIP: You can also layer in your DAW! You're not limited to Arturia synths!

*gasp!*

(Sorry, I am STILL dying on the "layers in VSTs are lame" hill.)

. Relevant because the majority of presets in Dune have at least 2 layers

That's mainly due to so called 'sound designers' being lazy...switch a load off and and the sound changes so little, you wonder why they bothered (hint: they didn't)

Aside from complex percussion sounds, where one instance and several layers is way more convenient, layers in a synth are completely pointless

Dune is my most used synth, it's layers are not. (Even tho it was my idea )

[CausticPuppy]

Even with single layers Dune still sounds really good. Some of the patches are simply using 2 layers for a binaural effect which is nice. I guess it's a few more months before it goes on sale again though.

The sound kind of reminds me of Novation Summit- digital oscillators with nice analog filters. I can kind of get there with ZebraHZ too using the Diva filters. That's a nice 4-layer synth but the layers can be criss-crossed every which way.

[Dencheg]

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset nor as quick and easy as Analog Lab makes it.

Depends on the DAW... In Bitwig it is both easy and way more powerful (same for Live). You can save it as a layered preset just like any synth.

I only make single layer presets in Dune and if I want layering, I do it in the DAW.

I suppose those are single layer single OSC presets?

[pdxindy]

I suppose those are single layer single OSC presets?

I make sure 50% are 1 Osc and 50% are 2 Osc and never use the 3rd

[chk071]

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset

Why not?

[CausticPuppy]

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset

Why not?

For one thing, if you're using the FX built in to a preset (and they are part of the patch) and you want more than 1 layer through the same FX chain, you cannot do that using multiple instances in a DAW. If you want to modulate the mix between layers, it's much easier to do that within the plugin itself, particularly if the modulation source is something within the plugin rather than a MIDI CC.

So there are use cases for having multi-layered patches. But often times they aren't needed.

More often I'll find a nice multi-layered patch and then turn off 1 or 2 layers that I don't really need.

[chk071]

Its a fair point but layering in your DAW is not quite the same as designing a layered preset

Why not?

For one thing, if you're using the FX built in to a preset (and they are part of the patch) and you want more than 1 layer through the same FX chain, you cannot do that using multiple instances in a DAW. If you want to modulate the mix between layers, it's much easier to do that within the plugin itself, particularly if the modulation source is something within the plugin rather than a MIDI CC.

So there are use cases for having multi-layered patches. But often times they aren't needed.

I think so too. I mean, everyone has his own workflow, but, at the very least, I don't think you can make a generality out of this kind of thing.

[pdxindy]

For one thing, if you're using the FX built in to a preset (and they are part of the patch) and you want more than 1 layer through the same FX chain, you cannot do that using multiple instances in a DAW.

Sure you can... easy in Bitwig (or Live and some other DAW's)

If you want to modulate the mix between layers, it's much easier to do that within the plugin itself, particularly if the modulation source is something within the plugin rather than a MIDI CC.

Doing that is trivial and fast in Bitwig or Live.

And all this stuff works with every VST instrument and FX. It is more powerful to do in Bitwig and better workflow and visual feedback as well.

I think every DAW should have this sort of capability cause it just makes more sense at the DAW level.

[MattLeschuck]

For me its Dune all the way. The unison, the filters, the FX and the overall package just sounds much better IMO. I for one really like the layer system in Dune (Rapid also being a great example).. I appreciate the dedicated Filters, Amp and Filter envelopes per layer. Synapse (Antidote being another great example), do one of the best Reverb's I have heard built in to a software synth. Dune's shimmer is great.

The other thing is Dune is WAY more efficient with the CPU. Even building basic sounds in Pigments can bury the CPU. Big pads have me often hovering between 60-90%. It takes a lot to have Dune even break a sweat.

Ill say though the Pigments UI is layed out well. I find it pretty easy to navigate.

[BONES]

I don't use DUNE much because I don't like it's workflow at all and I don't use Pigments at all because I don't think it's sound is quite up there. So my advice would be if you want a synth that's really easy to work with, choose Pigments but if sound quality matters more to you, choose DUNE. In the end it's really that simple, I think.