Korg Wavestate and Opsix for Win/Mac

[aMUSEd]

I see when you enter the product code it converts the demo into a full version but do I need to download any additional content for them? I thought maybe the demos came with less sounds, or are they the same as the full versions apart from the license?

[bermudagold]

Yeah...that's a bias towards my more personal mental model where synthesis reflects processes that have a much more fundamental change to the starting sound...so in a non academic context I don't think of pcm sampling as synthesis,...because it is technically, but not aurally...but by an academic definition like the one you offered you are correct...I get it
And I totally understand on the other point...the more micro and deconstructive methods of synthesis and sound design tend to have more utility in game design, CHI design, or scoring film; even if limited in musical use cases IME

That's because your definition of "musical" is too myopic.

Of course sampling is "aurally" synthesis. Just because it doesn't start out with a saw sine square pulse or triangle wave doesn't mean it isn't synthesis. In fact removing those limitations means sampling is a more powerful form of synthesis. Anything that can be heard can be sampled.

You can have just as much "fundamental change to the starting sound" using a sample based Oscillator as an Osc limited to five waveforms. Nothing is stopping you from running a sample through a Moog filter, envelopes, etc etc.

I understand we're living in the time of modulation madness where people feel the need to modulate modulators with modulation modulators or what I call the Skrillex Syndrome.

But not everybody makes EDM. There are so many other genres that just are as much musical as any of the alphabet genres. For example you can win an Academy Award for best original score and so on.

Of course this is all off topic but I just have to push back against the KVR snobbery that looks down on sampling as a lesser form of synthesis or not really synthesis at all.

I remember when I bought my first sampler in the 80's it was like going from watching black and white TV with analog synths to having every color in the spectrum at your fingertips. Sampling was a quantum leap in the world of synthesis for me.

Anyway back to Wavestate it's certainly not for everybody just as simple analog synths don't excite everybody.

We all make different music and we all need different sounds........

you see one side as myopic,...others see your side as pedantic...funny how that works right?
Yeah, I think you missed my only point pertaining to the mental model...pcm sampling when done well is an accurate representation of the original "real world" sound and is not perceived aurally as "synthetic"....the more you mangle a sample, the more "synthetic" its sound becomes, and thus increasing the perception it has undergone "synthesis"

Many people don't consider crossfading samples "synthesis"...its simply blending or mixing...according to the previously offered mental model, a DJ who slowly pushes the fader across a mixer between two turntables is performing "synthesis"?....that's just semantic suicide...decreasing the utility of language, which is to provide and convey meaning

This model may not jive with a standard definition, but I'm not on Pluto either...whether we are talking about what is considered "synthesis" or "musical";...just as in any normal distribution, there will always be data points in the tails, but there is a common perception of what something is as people coalesce around the largest area under the curve...that doesn't make that perception myopic.

This is all horses for courses anyway,...and I have no horse in this race...which is why I accepted and agreed with the merit of your points...And I was never one of those "KVR snobs" who look down on sampling...I was only responding to the original poster I quoted to acknowledge that for many users and use cases; the whole is not always that much greater than the sum of its parts...and therefore may not be necessary, new, or novel

[D-Fusion]

Weird. Installed Wavestate Demo and that one runs Perfectly here 3% Cpu usage and no Noticeable Gui Glitch and Problems that the OPSiX Has.

So i Guess there must be a Bug or two that has Creeped into OPSiX that shouldn't be there.

[bmanic]

Well I couldn't help myself. Had to purchase the Wavestate. It's an absolute monster of a "basic" synthesizer. This will probably become my go-to customized rompler. I've already sampled tons of my analogue synths and other VSTi plugins, loaded up the waves in the Wavestate and simply used it as a basic layering rompler. It's really good for this task as the control over the effects and envelopes is so easy to manage. The patch browser also makes it really easy for me to find my sounds again.

Now the actual wavesequencing thing is still making me scratch my head but I'm already having tons of fun with that. Can't wait to sample the Behringer Neutron with all it's quirky glitches and plops, then add those into a wavetable and create some silly but fun to play presets.


On the negative side of things: I've had quite a few crashes to desktop (Mac Mini M1, running Reaper native arm). This is definitely not reliable enough to use for serious work at this moment. I hope they get it fixed.

[wwjd]

doesn't sound ANYTHING like the real ones. not even close.

I suspect that's a troll post, but we'll see.

I'm certain it was meant as an ironic joke

yes this

[CausticPuppy]

calling it a form of synthesis is a bit of a stretch IMO

Not at all. If you want to call "Subtractive" or "FM" synthesis then Wavesequencing is without a doubt a form of synthesis.

"Sound synthesis is the technique of generating sound, using electronic hardware or software, from scratch. The most common use of synthesis is musical, where electronic instruments called synthesizers are used in the performance and recording of music. Sound synthesis has many applications both academic and artistic, and we commonly use synthesizers and synthesis methods to:Generate interesting and unique sounds or timbres incapable of being produced acoustically. Recreate or model the sounds of real-world acoustic instruments or sounds".

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sound_Syn ... troduction

I understand the collective definition of synthesis at KVR is a saw wave through a low pass filter but unless one's definition is that myopic they have to accept WS is a form of synthesis.

"You could do it in your DAW" just shows a complete misunderstanding of the method of synthesis.

complex and evolving can get gimmicky pretty quickly...even the developer of Hyperion said this very thing about the pitfalls of this method...and said how the results can be hard to fit/use in a track

Not if you're working on audio to submit for an upcoming movie as I am. Wavesequencing is the perfect type of synthesis for the task. Backing tracks, scene tension etc...

Wavestate really is a soundtrack machine.

[CausticPuppy]

Was t meant it was a honest question. The wavestate got a lot of praise so I suppose it is me not seeing the point.

Your question is not trollish, and your point is valid...calling it a form of synthesis is a bit of a stretch IMO, it is mainly cross-fading samples sequentially in the time domain under a single master performance envelope...as I said in my earlier post, there are therefore lots of ways to "wavesequence"...there is this style, the wusikstation style...lunacy cube is essentially wavesequencing 8 samples...all of the procedural audio physics engine tools that allow samples are also "wavesequencing"....at its simplest you can create wavesequences in a DAW or audio editor and drop them in a sampler....or you can layer samples and samplers in a plugin rack and isolate sound layers sequentially with envelope design and MSEG tools....Can you get as complex as quickly as wavestate?, which looks like a fun rabbit hole btw; ....probably not...but complex and evolving can get gimmicky pretty quickly...even the developer of Hyperion said this very thing about the pitfalls of this method...and said how the results can be hard to fit/use in a track as playable instruments...even as the wavestation was his inspiration for Hyperion
I agree with Teksonik, its a very useful sound design method...I particularly appreciate how wide a palette of timbres are achievable when using your own samples, and the deterministic nature of it...but it's not rocket science and you don't need wavestate to do it....and seems like some of wavestate's workflow time savings will be lost having to use their sample converter instead of just loading your files directly.

It’s not just wave sequencing though. You have all the subtractive synthesis tools on top of that, and just about everything can be modulated by anything else. It’s more like a sample-based modular playground.

It also blurs the line between sound design and composition.

[PAK]

Wavestate really is a soundtrack machine.

Here's someone doing high quality stripped back 80's construction kits for it. Even if not to someones tastes, some might see it as an alternative to stuff, like Nexus or Avenger, when viewed like this.

[zvenx]

[....

Thank you for turning me on to his channel.
Not sure I would have use for his patches beyond walking down memory lane, but of all the retro recreations I have ever heard for synths and patches (avenger, nexus etc).. this is by far my favourite.

thanks
rsp

[DrGonzo]

OPSix is incredible - it's pretty much what I had hoped NI would do with FM8, a FM (and more) equivalent of Massive X

I haven't had the time to check any of them out yet - but I think the OPsix is the most intriguing in my mind. Just wanting to hear your take on it - what do you find so enjoyable about the OPsix?

/C

[kritikon]

Wavestate really is a soundtrack machine.

Here's someone doing high quality stripped back 80's construction kits for it. Even if not to someones tastes, some might see it as an alternative to stuff, like Nexus or Avenger, when viewed like this.

Definitely not what I would think of doing with a Wavestate, but it shows how versatile it can be. I like the way he has sequences running to do the arp/bass sequence type thing and then all of the classic 80s sounds - very good Equinoxe replica. It's quite something that it can make the big cinematic backgrounds and textures and then that 80s stuff so easily. Good find

[D-Fusion]

OPSix is incredible - it's pretty much what I had hoped NI would do with FM8, a FM (and more) equivalent of Massive X

I haven't had the time to check any of them out yet - but I think the OPsix is the most intriguing in my mind. Just wanting to hear your take on it - what do you find so enjoyable about the OPsix?

/C

Atm. I found nothing enjoyable with the OPSiX
So far this release has given me the worst experience i have ever withness since the Birth og vst's.

I wanted the wavestate too but after getting burned by buying the OPSiX i tested the wavestate before deciding and that one worked great on my PC so i bought that one too.

So i recommend strongly that you Demo the OPSiX before you buy it.

[musichascolors]

It's always interesting to see discussions on whether something does/does not fit within a certain category. Ultimately, words mean different things to different people. Person A's definition of synthesizer is different from Person B's, that's ok.

Between this and Behringer, I think we're going to see more and more hardware synth companies go the software route due to the chip shortage. Should be interesting, as these hardware companies tend to be a lot larger than the studios that have been developing most software synths in the past. Maybe Arturia is comparable, though I think Korg is still a lot bigger, especially with Yamaha's backing.

[Teksonik]

Yep, I know what you're saying, all I'm saying is - it's easy to respond to the CC16/17 thing because he already knew the answer.
At the moment, he doesn't have an answer for the (various) performance issues reported across a range of systems, and they are, from what he *has* said, looking into it,

Once again I don't expect an answer. Just a simple acknowledgement here that the issues are being addressed.

He has already responded to some posts here so it's not a quantum leap in effort to address the performance issues brought up here.

Partial forum participation can be a worse look for a company than no participation at all.

I remembered yesterday that I had sent a support request to Korg in the past and never received a response. I have still not received a response to my recent support ticket and this being the weekend I doubt it will come in the next two days...if ever.

So I'm left to consider the fact that if I do purchase another Korg plugin (I own 4 already) that there is a good chance that support will be spotty or non-existent.

If anyone remembers the patch recall bug in Wavestation and M1 they'll remember that fixes from Korg can be slow in coming.

But I'll still probably buy the plugin since I like it a lot but I'll do so with eyes wide open knowing that if I ever do need support Korg may not provide top level service.

[Teksonik]

Many people don't consider crossfading samples "synthesis"...its simply blending or mixing..

Then many people simply don't fully understand wavesequencing synthesis and that's fine.

By their definition Wavetables are not synthesis either since they're just a series of (much shorter) samples.

Again there's nothing keeping you from routing an Osc that contains a series of full samples through Filters, Envs, FX, Modulation, etc just like you can a WT or FM or VA Osc.

I was just pushing back against the notion that "you could do it all in your DAW" which you so eloquently explained why is simply not the case.

But like I've said several times already WS is not for everybody. To each their own. I have zero interest in Korg's FM synth but several people seem to be enjoying it so that just proves we all have our preferred synthesis tools