KVR Audio

Barbarossa · Post by **Barbarossa** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:15 pm

Everyone learns in and out every plugin after installation and therefore knows everything and never forgets a feature a plugin offers.

Only the brightest know the secret trick to use CTRL+F to search for a feature.
Geniuses in forums...

melomood · Post by **melomood** » Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:44 pm

I just grouped em as I got em so they'd be ready for macro assignments and organized in my library with other racks & instruments

P.S. it helps me feel fresh and free,like I've been released from the unbearable shackles of a horrible slave existence

You know

Since we're comparing vst placement to slavery

Ikaz7 · Post by **Ikaz7** » Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:16 pm

Recent tests revealed that offline oversampling in plugins is not working in Ableton. Just in case you ask yourself: Offline oversampling, what's that? Some plugins (especially saturation, distortion and limiting = non-linear processes plugins) benefit from oversampling (OS).

Without OS they can introduce aliasing, unpleasant digital artifacts. Offline OS is when the plugin can be run at no / low oversampling in realtime (during playback, recording etcetera), while using high OS rates during export. Best of both worlds: keep the CPU low during realtime use and get the highest fidelity when exporting the audio.

I was always under the impression that most DAWs, including Ableton, would support plugins that have offline oversampling options, until recently. After running the tests with two plugins that offer offline OS it turned out that the OS would NOT be applied during export. The version of the file with offline OS set to 16x has the exact same aliasing pattern in the frequency analyzer, as the version with no oversampling engaged. So you will get lots of aliasing, especially when you run projects at 44.1 khz sampling rate.

Here is the relevant thread: viewtopic.php?t=581067

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:13 am

Ikaz7 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:16 pm Recent tests revealed that offline oversampling in plugins is not working in Ableton. Just in case you ask yourself: Offline oversampling, what's that? Some plugins (especially saturation, distortion and limiting = non-linear processes plugins) benefit from oversampling (OS).

Without OS they can introduce aliasing, unpleasant digital artifacts. Offline OS is when the plugin can be run at no / low oversampling in realtime (during playback, recording etcetera), while using high OS rates during export. Best of both worlds: keep the CPU low during realtime use and get the highest fidelity when exporting the audio.

I was always under the impression that most DAWs, including Ableton, would support plugins that have offline oversampling options, until recently. After running the tests with two plugins that offer offline OS it turned out that the OS would NOT be applied during export. The version of the file with offline OS set to 16x has the exact same aliasing pattern in the frequency analyzer, as the version with no oversampling engaged. So you will get lots of aliasing, especially when you run projects at 44.1 khz sampling rate.

Here is the relevant thread: viewtopic.php?t=581067

Do you really have to spam every single thread which is somehow in the ballpark to mention the same issue you´ve got over and over again??

If you want to change something go and nerve the developers but please stop this here!

Ikaz7 · Post by **Ikaz7** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:22 am

Trancit wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:13 am
Do you really have to spam every single thread which is somehow in the ballpark to mention the same issue you´ve got over and over again??

If you want to change something go and nerve the developers but please stop this here!

Spam every single thread? Calm down dude! This is a serious shortcoming in Ableton and users have a right to know about this. It's relevant for Ableton 11 users, so it's legitimate to drop a notice in this thread. If you don't care, why comment? If you got the spare time to follow every single thread on KVR, you probably have much bigger issues anyway. If you want to discuss your emotional state further, contact me via PM and don't spam the thread please. Only info relevant to Ableton 11, such as the offline oversampling issue, belongs here.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:50 am

The offline processing flag was intended for audio editors, not DAWs.

Trancit · Post by **Trancit** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:08 am

Ikaz7 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:22 am
Trancit wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:13 am
Do you really have to spam every single thread which is somehow in the ballpark to mention the same issue you´ve got over and over again??

If you want to change something go and nerve the developers but please stop this here!
Spam every single thread? Calm down dude! This is a serious shortcoming in Ableton and users have a right to know about this. It's relevant for Ableton 11 users, so it's legitimate to drop a notice in this thread. If you don't care, why comment? If you got the spare time to follow every single thread on KVR, you probably have much bigger issues anyway. If you want to discuss your emotional state further, contact me via PM and don't spam the thread please. Only info relevant to Ableton 11, such as the offline oversampling issue, belongs here.

Let´s see...
It´s not that I don´t care...but you first made this posting in a voxengo thread... then you made your own thread... then you put it into a thread in the Bitwig forum... then you made this posting here...
You sound like a broken record whining over and over again about the same thing...
You will not change anything by nerving the users...
Go out and nerve the developers who don´t do it the right way in your opinion...

To sum this up:
You made now 80 postings at kvr in total and probably all of them (or at least the most) are about the same content over and over again...
It´s not that I don´t care... it just nerves...

Now you made it onto my foe list so I will not see any postings of you so please do not adress anything to me... I will luckily don´t see it anymore!

Autobot · Post by **Autobot** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:53 am

Is it possible that Ikaz7 is the user formerly known as Kazi7? The banned one? The one who was similar annoying? Just wondering...

Ikaz7 · Post by **Ikaz7** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:07 am

whyterabbyt wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:50 am The offline processing flag was intended for audio editors, not DAWs.

Are you serious? Why would anyone intentionally exclude DAW use, the most common use scenario? If you claim "it was intended for audio editors" than you have to point to a source that supports your assumption. Plugin developers apparently disagree with you too, since they don't intend their plugins to be only used with "audio editors", but not DAWs. All in all I would give you 1/10 points on a credibility scale for that statement.

Many DAWs actually support offline oversampling, meaning the have the offline processing flag implemented correctly. A DAW not supporting offline processing settings in VST plugins is a flaw, not intended behaviour. In fact, as we run further tests, it turned out that it works with VST2 plugins, so Ableton does understand the importance of offline flagging, but just doesn't handle it correctly in their VST3 implementation.

If you don't see the advantages of offline oversampling settings and the relevance of the fact, that contrary to expected behaviour, Ableton doesn't perform this function correctly, then that's fine. I guess you are not bothered by audio quality degradation than or you have a fairly powerful setup, where you can run projects in realtime at high sample rates by default. But try to understand that for many users who don't have top-tier audio workstations or who care about fidelity, this matters.

Autobot · Post by **Autobot** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:10 am

Hell dude. We got it. Ask the Ableton Live support about it or Steinberg's support for vst3. Complaining here and arguing with the user will not help you with an obvious high priority issue of yours.

Ikaz7 · Post by **Ikaz7** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:15 am

Autobot wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:10 am Hell dude. We got it. Ask the Ableton Live support about it or Steinberg's support for vst3. Complaining here and arguing with the user will not help you with an obvious high priority issue of yours.

Hey, calm down, breath in and out slowly. Everything will be fine. This is a high priority issue for all Ableton users, unless aliasing is characteristic for your sound. Understand? Be thankful that we have inquisitive minds on the board, who invest their personal time, go into the depths of analysis and reveal such shortcomings. What exactly is your contribution here?

Autobot · Post by **Autobot** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:18 am

Ikaz7 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:15 am
Autobot wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:10 am Hell dude. We got it. Ask the Ableton Live support about it or Steinberg's support for vst3. Complaining here and arguing with the user will not help you with an obvious high priority issue of yours.
Hey, calm down, breath in and out slowly. Everything will be fine. This is a high priority issue for all Ableton users, unless aliasing is characteristic for your sound. Understand? Be thankful that we have inquisitive minds on the board, who invest their personal time, go into the depths of analysis and reveal such shortcomings. What exactly is your contribution here?

Kazi7? Yes. Definitely

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:26 am

Ikaz7 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:07 am Are you serious?

Why would I not be? Check old VST2 documentation or any of the existing developer threads about the offline processing flag. Look for the one that points out that at the time of writing the only bit of software, DAW or anything else, that uses the flag was Wavelab.

Why would anyone intentionally exclude DAW use, the most common use scenario?

Because it was specifically intended for audio editor use, the most common scenario for offline processing.

If you claim "it was intended for audio editors" than you have to point to a source that supports your assumption.

Its the VST2 documentation.

Plugin developers apparently disagree with you too, since they don't intend their plugins to be only used with "audio editors", but not DAWs.

How does that change what the flag was intended for? The use of something and the intended use of something are not the same thing.

You do know that there's tons of stuff that VST2 plugins implement that Steinberg didnt intend developers to do, dont you? And that they used those 'misuses' to justify those things being rolled into VST3 as 'new features'.

All in all I would give you 1/10 points on a credibility scale for that statement.

Irrelevant. Its still a fact.

If you don't see the advantages of offline oversampling settings and the relevance of the fact, that contrary to expected behaviour, Ableton doesn't perform this function correctly, then that's fine.

Exceptionally puerile strawman. Ive not made any comment on that whatsoever.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:34 am

Ikaz7 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:15 am This is a high priority issue for all Ableton users

Are you serious? If you claim "this is a high priority issue for all Ableton users" than you have to point to a source that supports your assumption. All in all I would give you 1/10 points on a credibility scale for that statement.

EnochLight · Post by **EnochLight** » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:37 am

Autobot wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:53 am Is it possible that Ikaz7 is the user formerly known as Kazi7? The banned one? The one who was similar annoying? Just wondering...

The plot thickens!

Ableton Live 11