I would like to think that will get fixed in an update.mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 7:16 pm So, an old site about the CS-80 says this, re: the envelope attack times:
"The VCA and VCF envelopes both have a very fast available attack time of (1ms). However, longest attack time available is only 1 second. The release/decay times on both of these envelopes had a range of 10ms to 10 seconds."
(from: https://www.synthmuseum.com/yamaha/yamcs8001.html)
On the CS-80 V4, the longest possible attack time for the Filter Envelope attack slider is 580 ms -- which is WAY too short, and notably shorter than the actual 1sec (1000 ms) setting on the original. The longest possible attack time on the Amp envelope attack slider on CS-80 V4 is 885 ms. More than the Filter attack, but not by much, and still not accurate per the spec of an actual CS-80...
What is Arturia thinking here? They release a brand new update to their CS-80, notably change the envelope timing, but still don't bother to get it right? 580 ms for maximum attack time on a filter envelope is way, way, way too fast.
Arturia V Collection 9. Predictions?
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- KVRian
- 950 posts since 8 Mar, 2004 from Network 23
We shall see orchestral machines with a thousand new sounds, with thousands of new euphonies, as opposed to the present day's simple sounds of strings, brass, and woodwinds. -- George Antheil, circa 1925 ---
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- KVRAF
- 5483 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
It is also possible that the info you read is wrong and Arturia measured one or more actual units to reproduce the real world behaviour rather than tech specs or word of mouth?
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 2468 posts since 6 Jul, 2013
It seems like a weird thing to get wrong - the measurements on this stuff are pretty basic. Perhaps the CS80 they had and modelled behaved like this?mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 7:16 pmOn the CS-80 V4, the longest possible attack time for the Filter Envelope attack slider is 580 ms -- which is WAY too short, and notably shorter than the actual 1sec (1000 ms) setting on the original. The longest possible attack time on the Amp envelope attack slider on CS-80 V4 is 885 ms. More than the Filter attack, but not by much, and still not accurate per the spec of an actual CS-80...
Changing the range of the slider now would probably require them to update almost all the presets accordingly...
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- KVRian
- 1172 posts since 25 Jan, 2017
That would be my guess too.
Looking at this demonstration, the attack time is really really close to V4.
Precisely at 11:58 he plays a note at max attack time, just once.
edit: MY BAD at 11:58 he sets attack level to max, not attack time (which is almost at max)
Still... the filter envelope in the plugin sounds very similar to the video on those various combinations, trying to match the settings.
https://youtu.be/sV3qDUTVsNo?t=712
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- KVRAF
- 2300 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
Sure, that's possible, too. But consider this: their previous CS-80 V (versions 1 through 3) had 20,000 ms attack time. What's the logic there? The spec for the CS-80, as noted, is only 1 second, so 1000 ms. Arturia decided, over a period of more than a decade, to leave it at 20,000. Do you think they owned the one CS-80 in the world that had 20k ms attack time instead of 1k ? I find that....highly unlikely. Now, on their new version, it's 580 ms.... so from 20k to 580, with the spec of the actual unit at 1k. Hmm. So, they measured it 'wrong' before (20k) and now 'right' this time around, and it's actually 580ms ? Maybe, I guess....but then I try actually using this new version. It's very hard to make classic filter sweeps, because the attack time is so damn fast no matter where you set it. I can't recreate any of the blade runner 'swells' (also heard on Antarctica and many other Vangelis albums), again because the envelope just can't move that way, it's too fast..... all of which makes me think the chances of Arturia having gotten it 'right' this time seem very, very slim. But that's just my take atm! I'm always open to new info on the matter.
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- KVRAF
- 2300 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
Well, again, if you want to give Arturia the benefit of the doubt and say that 580 ms is just the 'accurate' measurement of Arturia's referrence CS-80, how the hell did they come up with 20,000 ms for versions 1 through 3 ?
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- KVRAF
- 2300 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
Welp, look what I just found! hahaha....guess I kinda stepped in it. This at certainly helps clarify their decision making & provides me the options I want:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- KVRAF
- 8802 posts since 7 Oct, 2005
^^^ Good you have discovered that. I haven't used the previous CS-80 V, so it will be some time for me to get the hang of it.
Downloading now the whole lot. It was $149 for me. I think it worth the upgrade price, let's see now what Arturia has installed.
Downloading now the whole lot. It was $149 for me. I think it worth the upgrade price, let's see now what Arturia has installed.
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- KVRian
- 950 posts since 8 Mar, 2004 from Network 23
Cool!
We shall see orchestral machines with a thousand new sounds, with thousands of new euphonies, as opposed to the present day's simple sounds of strings, brass, and woodwinds. -- George Antheil, circa 1925 ---
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- KVRAF
- 5483 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
Very interesting. What are the min/max attack times for the two different modes?
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 2300 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
Different stages of the envelopes have different times, but the ones concerning me specifically were the Attack times of the Filter Envelopes --
Classic Mode: 2ms - 580ms (the spec I found on the CS-80 says it should be 1ms - 1000 ms,
fwiw; I'm assuming their model simply varied from this)
Long Mode: 2ms - 10 seconds
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- KVRAF
- 1550 posts since 3 Oct, 2001 from Thailand
Could it be that the swells were created using aftertouch rather than the envelopes?mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 8:20 pm It's very hard to make classic filter sweeps, because the attack time is so damn fast no matter where you set it. I can't recreate any of the blade runner 'swells' (also heard on Antarctica and many other Vangelis albums), again because the envelope just can't move that way, it's too fast..... all of which makes me think the chances of Arturia having gotten it 'right' this time seem very, very slim. But that's just my take atm! I'm always open to new info on the matter.
Peace, my friends. I'm not seeking arguments here. 
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- KVRAF
- 2300 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA
Yes, that's possible, especially since on the actual hardware aftertouch is, i believe, implemented such that it scales as you press harder and harder (I could be wrong though). Sadly that can't be done with most bog-standard aftertouch implementations; e.g. on my Komplete Kontrol S Mk2, aftertouch just 'kicks in' to the full modulation depth the moment I press hard on the keys; so a 'swell' isn't possible, it just jumps from original value to aftertouch depth value the moment I press hard and engage aftertouch. But, as said, I think the original CS-80 had a more dynamic implementation...poonna wrote: ↑Wed May 11, 2022 3:38 amCould it be that the swells were created using aftertouch rather than the envelopes?mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 10, 2022 8:20 pm It's very hard to make classic filter sweeps, because the attack time is so damn fast no matter where you set it. I can't recreate any of the blade runner 'swells' (also heard on Antarctica and many other Vangelis albums), again because the envelope just can't move that way, it's too fast..... all of which makes me think the chances of Arturia having gotten it 'right' this time seem very, very slim. But that's just my take atm! I'm always open to new info on the matter.
There is also aftertouch > sub osc (the LFO) > filter cutoff, so with this routing aftertouch could be causing the LFO to kick in on the cutoff, causing an lfo-style sweep. So there's that! But honestly what I'm referring to is just obvious filter rises / falls that almost always will be controlled by envelopes. but, can't say I know for sure! There's also the possibility that the filter sweeps I'm hearing are manually performed -- literal fingers moving the filter sliders in real time during recording. Especially when you consider how the CS-80 has that big green 'combined' filter slider that controls both filters at once....definitely also a possibility. So, yeah: there's enough different approaches here that what I'm hearing may very well not be the filter envelope after all. Regardless, now that I've found the panel offering the 'long' mode for the Envs, all is well anyway
Cheers!-
machinesworking machinesworking https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8505 - KVRAF
- 6175 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle
Really happy they updated CS80, and with MPE support. Looks like a good update, looking forward to the MS-20 etc. At first glance I thought it was just the MS-20 and their Strings and Voice NI rompler styled engines. If you’re into using MPE controllers it’s a great deal of an upgrade from v8.
