Is virtual analog an advertising ploy?

[BONES]

FWIW - I have zero clue what you're arguing any more. You say it sounds terrible, everything later is better, but actually you prefer the first version even though the sounds are worse and I now I don't really know what you consider the first version to be.

It's not about what I consider the first version to be, it's about what the first f**king version is. And you don't even know which is which, even after you looked it up. Besides, I've decided I like the Peel Session version better. I'd not heard it before.

Did you watch the Martin Ware video? It's only a few minutes and definitely worth it.

[noiseboyuk]

BONES - a friendly tip. Less condescension, and perhaps just a moment to think before you press post, and everything will be just fine.

Okay, I think I may have found the source of all the raging. There is a version on YouTube of Being Boiled, called Being Boiled 1982. This is the version that a few of us said just sounds like a remix.



This is the stereo version that was actually released in the UK in 1980 on the Holiday 80 EP, and in several other territories as a single between 1980-1982 (the original release is mono). This is the one some of us heard and said sounded worse (it does). I'm not sure it's even a proper remix, it sounds like the original master shoved through some effects.

The Travelogue version - released in THE SAME YEAR, a month later in fact, is totally different and is the John Leckie re-record.

Holiday 80 got to 56 in the UK charts in 1980, and was re-issued in 1982 and got to 46. However, it seems the single was also re-issued under a banner of the "re-boiled mix" and got right up to no 6 - also in 1982. I can't actually figure out what version this was though.

So the one that almost everyone plays now is the original mono single version, which most of us say is best (and is also the simplest). The John Leckie version isn't bad and has its own charm - it sounds a bit like Simple Minds' I Travel production-wise recorded at much the same time, but I Travel works better imo (in fact it still sounds fab). The stereo re-jig of the original is a bit rubbish.

[zerocrossing]

To answer the original question; I don't believe that analog modelling itself is purely a marketing ploy, although I do think it's often overstated, & even mystified to an extent, within marketing ploys.

Well, it’s fashionable right now, so it makes sense that if a product has a character that’s currently all the rage, they’re going to talk about it a lot. Maybe even if their product doesn’t actually much in the way of analog characteristics.

Like anything else, it’s a matter of taste. There are times I want it and nothing but the real deal is going to make me happy, but sometimes it definitely doesn’t work as well. There’s this very tough sounding bass sound I like to use. It’s pretty simple. One oscillator does a saw tooth into a filter that’s usually tuned to about mid way point and tracks.Maybe an octave. Then you take the second osc and go an octave down and mute it but send it to modulate the cutoff. If the range of the bass line is pretty small, it’s going to sound really amazing on the analog, but if it’s all over the keyboard, problems tracking the keyboard perfectly is going to be an issue for those VCOs and you’ll get weird beating that makes the bass line too inconsistent. Boot up something that does this thing well, like Softube Modular, and you get most of that tone, but it tracks the keyboard all the way up and down as far as you want to go.

Now, some “VA” sucks at this sound. Phase Plant announced that they had audio rate modulation in v2, and it’s terrible. It’s great at oscillator to oscillator FM, PM, etc, but when you try to use the oscillator as a sound source, it breaks. This is not necessarily an analog characteristic, but it is a place where digital most often breaks down. Any sort of distortion is a source of failure too, though Phase Plant does a pretty good job here, only showing a bit of aliasing at the top end.

Basically, it’s about understand and becoming intimate with your tools and using them in their best context. There’s also nothing wrong without not caring about analog at all. I somehow managed to not have any analog synthesis from about 1995 to 2005. I didn’t even have an analog guitar amp during some of that period and I don’t have one now. I’m aware that I’m missing out on some aspects of having a real guitar amp, but the benefits that I gain (pun alert!) from using an AxeFX far outweigh anything I might get with a true amp.

[foosnark]

sorry that was for the weather thread

For where I live, the historical average high for June has been 86 F (30C). The last few days have been record-breaking: 94, 99, 98. The forecast is for 100, 98, 93, 90, 94, 101, 102 (that's 39C), 100, 98, 96, 95, 95, 95, 96... quite a bit hotter than Abu Dhabi. High humidity too, so yeah, we're being boiled.

[pixel85]

sorry that was for the weather thread

For where I live, the historical average high for June has been 86 F (30C). The last few days have been record-breaking: 94, 99, 98. The forecast is for 100, 98, 93, 90, 94, 101, 102 (that's 39C), 100, 98, 96, 95, 95, 95, 96... quite a bit hotter than Abu Dhabi. High humidity too, so yeah, we're being boiled.

Same here + I have no AC and there's no wind. Even open windows at night can't put temperature at my home lower than 28 degrees. Fun times

[eytanmich123]

I think the whole notion of "analog vs digital" - in itself - is sham. or a ploy. or whatever you want to call it.

Look, lemme give you an example. lets talk movies. lets talk "Top Gun Maverick" that was marketed as "true flying, true dog fights, real jets, real maneuvers" - to the extend that REAL FIGHTER PILOTS could not tell the difference, whilst seeing the movie (because it was largely just that).

But alas, the movie was HEAVILY CGI'ed. not the main theme (the flying. it was real) but a LOT of stuff around it. an interview with one the film's CGI guys yesterday revealed it (an interview that was taken down hours later, after the film company lawyers contacted the guy who posted the review).
Now, not that the marketing was wrong but there was so much CGI going on and to such a degree of accuracy (attention to the finest details conceivable) - that it doesn't matter any more.

What am I trying to say here ?

That it doesn't matter anymore. digital is just augmenting a REAL, VALID, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE. it can replace analog altogether as a workflow or\and a means to express ourselves aurally - if it suits one... or not. it's a CHOICE. an artistic one.

And just as the movie makers of Top Gun Maverick needed to meticulously recreate an F14 digitally (there is none flyable - at least not in the western world) to augment evocation of nostalgia (The first Top Gun's F14) - developers of VA are "playing" our nostalgic strings.
It is our money that goes into their pockets. simple as that (which is fine, BTW).

[D-Fusion]

I take Virtual analog any day if i had to choose.
There is a Reason why Analogs where seen as doorstops and worthless after being on the market for a while.

I say no thank you to for waiting upto 30minutes of warmup time and where one oscillator sometimes behaves like a drunk Choir member trying to stay in tune with the other Choir members after a few hours of playing and on some even after 30 minutes + endless tuning to stay in tune if your room temp change a degree or two.

Modern analog is no different than a Digital Synth If it is Digitaly Controlled and you need a Magic knob to get some variations in the tone (The False Choir Member).

[whyterabbyt]

There is a Reason why Analogs where seen as doorstops and worthless after being on the market for a while.

There were multiple reasons for that. And there were multiple reasons that they subsequently stopped being seen as doorstops and worthless. Something which happened at the point where digital, especially software, had become as much the established norm as analog had once been.

[D-Fusion]

There is a Reason why Analogs where seen as doorstops and worthless after being on the market for a while.

There were multiple reasons for that. And there were multiple reasons that they subsequently stopped being seen as doorstops and worthless. Something which happened at the point where digital, especially software, had become as much the established norm as analog had once been.

Yep. In these Modern times we see the true Power of Nostalgia

If Analog where so great in the beginning people would'nt have run away from it and embrace Digital and sold them for peanuts.

It was not just about a new sound palette since most decided to ditch their analogues instead of keeping them alongside their digital Synths.

Back in the day people used what they got or could afford so they are not magic machines just because they where used in X numbers of hit songs it was just that those instruments where the only thing they had to work with.

We are spoiled in todays market where those that want analog can get them new and those that prefer other options can also get the sound and feeling without all the headaches that follow with Analog HW.

[whyterabbyt]

If Analog where so great in the beginning people would'nt have run away from it and embrace Digital and sold them for peanuts.

ironic then that the same thing happened to those digital synths.

and that that 'embracing digital' basically boiled down to 'replicating analog'

[_leras]

Well, it’s fashionable right now, so it makes sense that if a product has a character that’s currently all the rage, they’re going to talk about it a lot. Maybe even if their product doesn’t actually much in the way of analog characteristics.

I think virtual analog is just anything that tries to recreate analog digitally. So even a very basic synth with one completely vanilla oscillator and filter qualifies.

If someone says they are trying to model a specific piece of hardware - then I think they clearly need to take it further than that. e.g. model the oscillators accurately, try to copy the filter as best possible, measure any stages in between etc.

[sQeetz]

If I were to go by what you post, I'd have assumed late adolescence, so I wouldn't feel too flattered if I were you.

So I wasn't that far off with my guess: 80? Maybe 75....? Wish you fun on your gigs with that walker.

[_leras]

If I were to go by what you post, I'd have assumed late adolescence, so I wouldn't feel too flattered if I were you.

So I wasn't that far off with my guess: 80? Maybe 75....? Wish you fun on your gigs with that walker.

Hmmm.

Is virtual adolescence just an advertising ploy?

[sQeetz]

Hmmm.

Is virtual adolescence just an advertising ploy?

It might be. In which case I don’t act and feel like an old geezer…. I guess.

[Ichad.c]

Yes and no, simply because there is no objective definition of 'virtual analog'. Take all the virtual analog effects, a vast majority that are modelled probably has input/output (and some interstage) transformers, which in most configurations will not pass DC(can be made to carry DC, but that is typically not used for audio passing purposes), so take all your "every component modelled" plugins and see if there is a highpass effect, haven't tested much but I would bet good money that a good percentage doesn't model the transformers. Transformers also distort the low frequency ranges, but it highly depends on the manufacturing, size, materials used etc if that distortion would be audible or not, like a 8:1 turn ratio will probably distort a bit more than a 1:1 turn ratio. The distortion is also kinda weird in a way, it is nothing like soft-clipping(it's magnetic hysteresis ), totally different shape and it literally happens in another physical/mathematical domain.



The above makes it kinda expensive(CPU-wise) to implement, assuming something decent like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiles%E2% ... rton_model, that you'll need to compute 4x assuming stereo input/output transformers. So in practice it's a trade-off, add the transformer model and increase CPU, or leave it out, or just replace it with a simple 1 pole(6dB/Oct) highpass filter. Note that in most cases the transformer saturation is a very subtle effect and actually doen't sound very good when overdriven(and you'll need bucket-loads of gain to do it to some).

Here is some interisting graphs comparing replacement tranformers for Neve style gear. http://www.vintech-audio.com/new%20graphs.html
http://www.jlmaudio.com/Neve%20transformer%20info.htm