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chk071
KVRAF
31882 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:09 am

teilo wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:20 pm
Atlatnesiti wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:36 am So Steinberg is releasing new app and it is NOT Apple M silicone native..?!
Cubase Pro is and so is Wavelab…
WTF?!
Yes it is.
It says that the "Rosetta2 App" is required.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
4440 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:30 am

chk071 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:09 am
teilo wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:20 pm
Atlatnesiti wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:36 am So Steinberg is releasing new app and it is NOT Apple M silicone native..?!
Cubase Pro is and so is Wavelab…
WTF?!
Yes it is.
It says that the "Rosetta2 App" is required.
Yeah, that's weird, it changed, it used to say Native, Rosetta 2.

chk071
KVRAF
31882 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:33 am

No idea, TBH. Probably best to ask Steinberg support before buying.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
4440 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:46 am

chk071 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:33 am No idea, TBH. Probably best to ask Steinberg support before buying.
Might've pulled the plug on the Native because of some Steinberg VST that's not stable in Native, that's my guess. We'll see, but I would bet that it's something like that because I distinctly remember it saying both Native, and Rosetta 2.

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BONES
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13585 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:34 am

I'd never want to flatten anything to audio. I will always want the ability to tweak everything should the need arise. e.g. During soundcheck you find the basslines are too boomy for the room/PA (happens quite a bit). Sure I could add an EQ or just turn them down but I'd rather play with the patch to get things working properly. If I was just playing back rendered audio, I wouldn't even need a computer, I could do it from my phone.

I've had a look at DP but the problem for me is that MOTU are too Apple-centric, I wouldn't trust them to care enough to fix PC problems.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

Ploki
KVRAF
5712 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:45 am

machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:46 am
chk071 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:33 am No idea, TBH. Probably best to ask Steinberg support before buying.
Might've pulled the plug on the Native because of some Steinberg VST that's not stable in Native, that's my guess. We'll see, but I would bet that it's something like that because I distinctly remember it saying both Native, and Rosetta 2.
So do I, but current version ix x86 only.
BONES wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:34 am I'd never want to flatten anything to audio. I will always want the ability to tweak everything should the need arise. e.g. During soundcheck you find the basslines are too boomy for the room/PA (happens quite a bit). Sure I could add an EQ or just turn them down but I'd rather play with the patch to get things working properly. If I was just playing back rendered audio, I wouldn't even need a computer, I could do it from my phone.

I've had a look at DP but the problem for me is that MOTU are too Apple-centric, I wouldn't trust them to care enough to fix PC problems.
I don't wish to dilute the topic, but how on earth is fixing room issues (boomy at SPECIFIC frequencies - room modes) better to do with THE SOURCE that you usually don't keymap to just lower the volume of one OSC on a specific note? If that's even possible anyway.

And that's generally engineer's job anyway, not the performer's
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machinesworking
KVRAF
4440 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 am

BONES wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:34 am I'd never want to flatten anything to audio. I will always want the ability to tweak everything should the need arise. e.g. During soundcheck you find the basslines are too boomy for the room/PA (happens quite a bit). Sure I could add an EQ or just turn them down but I'd rather play with the patch to get things working properly. If I was just playing back rendered audio, I wouldn't even need a computer, I could do it from my phone.
Have to agree with Ploki here, unless you're wanting to change the filtering live etc. then tweaking a sound to fit the room is easily done with an EQ. Reverbs I don't render to audio, because you do want to tweak them per room.
I've had a look at DP but the problem for me is that MOTU are too Apple-centric, I wouldn't trust them to care enough to fix PC problems.
Welcome to my world 15 years ago. :lol: MOTU are just slow to implement fixes, they always fix problems, it's just not as big of a company as people seem to think. IMO kind of the opposite problem of NI, who are too big to fix problems without worrying about payroll. They do seem dead serious about the Windows version of DP though, and any issues with their audio interface drivers in the past seems to be a thing of the past.

You're on Cubase, which heavily oscillates between stable Mac or Windows OS versions. Years ago Windows was much better, then when they fixed the Mac build the Windows one needed love etc. etc.

I remember someone using this method on DAWs in general, and it's kind of brilliant if you worry about stability more than new features, and it at the time exposed a glitch in Ableton's upgrade system. He bought Live 4 initially right when you got a free update to 5, but did not activate 5, so when 6 was announced he activated 5, and got the upgrade to 6 for free etc. etc. Plus it's always the very last hopefully bug fixed version of Live that he's currently using, minus new features.

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BONES
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13585 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:58 pm

Ploki wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:45 amI don't wish to dilute the topic, but how on earth is fixing room issues (boomy at SPECIFIC frequencies - room modes) better to do with THE SOURCE that you usually don't keymap to just lower the volume of one OSC on a specific note? If that's even possible anyway.
Exactly. Flatten the track, though, and you lose that ability, don't you?
And that's generally engineer's job anyway, not the performer's
You don't play live, do you? The headline act gets an engineer, usually we only get a decent soundcheck if we get to the venue first. All the FoH guy gets is a stereo mix so his solution would be to EQ the shit out of it until there is no power left in the mix.
machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:05 amHave to agree with Ploki here, unless you're wanting to change the filtering live etc. then tweaking a sound to fit the room is easily done with an EQ.
But I'd have to add an EQ and I'd rather not if I don't have to. I try to get everything right without EQ, it's a crutch I have learned to mostly do without. And rendering the audio removes the opportunity for happy accidents.

Once you render everything to audio, you're just doing karaoke. There is little enough to playing "live" with a computer doing most of the "playing" as it is, rendering it down to audio is just a step too far for us. We're live, things can and do go wrong. It annoys my bandmate but I love it.

Then there is the reality that once you render to audio, you're never going back and tweaking that part again. Of course you can but I know myself well enough to know that I won't.
Reverbs I don't render to audio, because you do want to tweak them per room.
I don't do much of that either. 99% of the effects I use are on-board the instruments they work on.
They do seem dead serious about the Windows version of DP though, and any issues with their audio interface drivers in the past seems to be a thing of the past.
I watched a video on DP Lite and it looks liek it could do everything I need. Unfortuantely, you can't buy it but even though it only comes with a MOTU interface, buying an M4 is half the price of DP 11.
You're on Cubase, which heavily oscillates between stable Mac or Windows OS versions.
No, I'm on Studio One which is way more stable than Cubase was. I bought Professiona, because that's just wah tyou do, but I'm almost certain I'd be just as happy on Artist (the cheapest version). I still have Cubase, because it's what my bandmate still uses, but neither of us have upgraded since we bought it at v10.
I remember someone using this method on DAWs in general, and it's kind of brilliant if you worry about stability more than new features
That's easy, I don't give a shit about new features. In fact, I'd pay money for them to remove things I have no need for.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
4440 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:27 pm

BONES wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:58 pm But I'd have to add an EQ and I'd rather not if I don't have to. I try to get everything right without EQ, it's a crutch I have learned to mostly do without. And rendering the audio removes the opportunity for happy accidents.
Once you render everything to audio, you're just doing karaoke. There is little enough to playing "live" with a computer doing most of the "playing" as it is, rendering it down to audio is just a step too far for us. We're live, things can and do go wrong. It annoys my bandmate but I love it.
Yeah and no, a bass line for instance I rarely want anything to change on. When I was staying away from guitar to branch out a bit live I rendered most things, but I would play 1-3 synths in the same song, and with Ableton I would also fire off one shot samples etc. I even recorded the vocalist while she sang and manipulated that audio in the same song.
In Ableton Live for instance you can set up parts of songs into fireable sequences, so in one song I would allow the vocalist to stretch out the break for up to a minute if she wanted before it would go back to the chorus. All of this is done with some backing tracks, it's just a perspective thing, I will render parts that never really change, toss a simple EQ on them for fixing in different rooms and separate them out into parts if the length of the song is possibly going to change.


I watched a video on DP Lite and it looks liek it could do everything I need. Unfortuantely, you can't buy it but even though it only comes with a MOTU interface, buying an M4 is half the price of DP 11.
Yeah I think it's a shame they don't sell it outright, I have audio interfaces already, the M4 is pretty cool though. Performer Lite is one of the more full featured "lite" DAWs out there, and yeah more than 90% of what I use DP for is there. In Lite they call the Chunks panel the Set List, on page 222, explains what I was mentioning DP for. Your description of cueing songs and having them play nonstop is exactly what DP does with the Next Sequence function with user designated space at the end before the next sequence plays.
https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/softw ... +Guide.pdf

That's easy, I don't give a shit about new features. In fact, I'd pay money for them to remove things I have no need for.
I do, but I used Live for performance for years and always waited a year or so before upgrading Live, because stability 100% matters more with live performance over some new feature I lived without for all these years.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
21501 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:28 pm

chk071 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:09 am
teilo wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:20 pm
Atlatnesiti wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:36 am So Steinberg is releasing new app and it is NOT Apple M silicone native..?!
Cubase Pro is and so is Wavelab…
WTF?!
Yes it is.
It says that the "Rosetta2 App" is required.
Might just be for the installer. Some M1 native apps need Rosetta for installation.

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BONES
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13585 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 pm

machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:27 pmI do, but I used Live for performance for years and always waited a year or so before upgrading Live, because stability 100% matters more with live performance over some new feature I lived without for all these years.
I really don't understand this, either. If any application I need isn't 100% reliable, I just won't use it. We've played dozens of gigs using beta versions of Orion and reliability was never an issue. It's not something I ever even thought about.

OTOH, the second time I lost work in Cubase was the last time I used it. So far, after two years and close to 100 songs, I am yet to lose work in Studio One. The only time it crashes is when loading a project/song and even those instances are becoming rare. Sometimes it might take me two attempts to get a whole set loaded but never more than that.

My PCs have been way more reliable on stage than any hardware set-up I ever had. In my hardware days there were way too many potential points of failure, it was fairly unusual to get through a whole set without some kind of problem. Of course, they were rarely catastrophic so mostly people didn't notice, whereas when you host goes down mid-set, it's a little more obvious. These days, for me, reliability is a given. I expect everything to just work and it always does.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
4440 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:45 pm

BONES wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 pm
machinesworking wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:27 pmI do, but I used Live for performance for years and always waited a year or so before upgrading Live, because stability 100% matters more with live performance over some new feature I lived without for all these years.
I really don't understand this, either. If any application I need isn't 100% reliable, I just won't use it. We've played dozens of gigs using beta versions of Orion and reliability was never an issue. It's not something I ever even thought about.

OTOH, the second time I lost work in Cubase was the last time I used it. So far, after two years and close to 100 songs, I am yet to lose work in Studio One. The only time it crashes is when loading a project/song and even those instances are becoming rare. Sometimes it might take me two attempts to get a whole set loaded but never more than that.

My PCs have been way more reliable on stage than any hardware set-up I ever had. In my hardware days there were way too many potential points of failure, it was fairly unusual to get through a whole set without some kind of problem. Of course, they were rarely catastrophic so mostly people didn't notice, whereas when you host goes down mid-set, it's a little more obvious. These days, for me, reliability is a given. I expect everything to just work and it always does.
Lol then you do understand this, Cubase was in an unstable version when you used it. Ableton are pretty cool with betas, and most of the time they were rock solid, but version 8 tanked stability big time, they added in Max/MSP, an object oriented programming language basically, and it needed a lot of work to get right. This happens sometimes, right now Studio One is the stable one for you, but you really can't tell, every DAW I've used has had at least one buggy version. Mostly bugs are errant VSTi's, but it can be that the VSTi works fine in every DAW but yours, such is life. A quick google search pulls up a thread on Studio One crashing with Kontakt 6 less than a year ago for instance.

One thing you have going for you is you have a powerful laptop in the form of the Zenbook, and plugins like the ones you mention tend not to be resource pigs, having good overhead is a great way to prevent anything from going haywire. You're also not that interested in bleeding edge things like articulation maps, MPE etc. etc. so your experience should be stable.

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BONES
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13585 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:50 pm

What I don't understand is why people keep working with buggy software. Life's too short. If, at some point, S1 starts to get buggy on me, I'll roll back to a stable version and be perfectly happy. Actually, to be honest, I think it's highly unlikely I'll upgrade to v6 anyway. I'm not going to spend money just to be on the current version, upgrades need to provide good value if they want me to buy it.

VSTi are definitely the problem most of the time but it's easy to work out which one is giving you grief. e.g. The one and only reason I decided to go to 64 bit was for Korg's ARP Odyssey but it gives me so many problems with CPU spikes that I've stopped using it and replaced it in every song I had it in. I love the way it sounds, it's really in a class of its own, but the problems it causes are not worth the hassle, and you can be pretty sure Korg aren't going to fix it, so it's gone.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
4440 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:37 pm

BONES wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:50 pm What I don't understand is why people keep working with buggy software. Life's too short. If, at some point, S1 starts to get buggy on me, I'll roll back to a stable version and be perfectly happy. Actually, to be honest, I think it's highly unlikely I'll upgrade to v6 anyway. I'm not going to spend money just to be on the current version, upgrades need to provide good value if they want me to buy it.
Oh for sure, I've literally switched DAWs when I found one too buggy, you did too with Studio One from Cubase etc.
VSTi are definitely the problem most of the time but it's easy to work out which one is giving you grief. e.g. The one and only reason I decided to go to 64 bit was for Korg's ARP Odyssey but it gives me so many problems with CPU spikes that I've stopped using it and replaced it in every song I had it in. I love the way it sounds, it's really in a class of its own, but the problems it causes are not worth the hassle, and you can be pretty sure Korg aren't going to fix it, so it's gone.
Same, if a plug in consistently spikes the CPU then it's not used much, if at all. Exception is Kontakt, simply because I have a large collection of instruments in that format.

One thing I did a while ago was to A/B the Prophet 5 emulations from Arturia and U-He. U-He famously use heavy CPU algorithms to get a really nice sound out of Repro 5, and this was Arturias older Prophet version, about 1/4 the CPU hit. On 90% of the sounds there's not much of a sonic difference, all that CPU only serves it seems certain types of sounds, i.e. use the freaking synth with 1/4 the CPU hit unless it's missing something, then turn to the one that oversamples etc.

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BONES
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13585 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:59 pm

Yeah, that's usually the obvious thing but it's easy to get stuck in a rut sometimes and not be able to see out of it. With Korg's Odyssey, there is nothing else like it. Neither Oddity nor Arturia's 2600 have unison, which thickens the sound up wonderfully in Korg's plugin. And the weird thing is sometimes it's fine, which is why I had it in a lot of songs, but lately it just goes spastic out of the blue and I can't see what's changed to make it do that. Maybe I shoudl try it in VST Live? (See how I brought it back on-topic? Pure f**king genius!)
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win11(64), UR44C | Studio One | GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Olga, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, Thorn, Odyssey, Equator, VG Iron | Uno Pro, Uno, Rocket.

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