CLAP: The New Audio Plug-in Standard (by U-he, Bitwig and others)

[aMUSEd]

Well, there were very productive talks with NI in the beginning, but they declined support for CLAP early on due to their plans to move to VST3. Judging by the pace of that transition, I would really like to talk to this engineer again who raised that point.

It surprised me then and it surprises me now. Because obviously NKS - a major asset of NI - is tied to a deprecated format and obviously the demise of that format has therefore cost NI an amount of money and shareholder value that is certainly unprecedented in the industry. It seems obvious to me that no other plug-in manufacturer has lost more due to this particular decision of another company.

We reached out back then because we were sure that NI would be working on their own format to proceed, and thus it would make sense to collaborate. Apparently they didn't, but still they wouldn't - yet, I sincerely hope they eventually will. CLAP would make so much sense, it's beyond me why they're not on board yet.

There is an active thread on the NI machine forum full of dissatisfied users waiting for VST3 support and there is not so much as a whisper from NI. As a Maschine user I find it deeply disappointing they have yet to implement VST3 support. And to hear they aren't even investigating other options makes you wonder what they are up to? The pace of the developments at NI is glacial for such a big organisation. Their latest sound wide offerrings from Izotope are VST3 only so you can't even use them in the Maschine ecosystem. Are they going to become the next blackberry or Nokia of our times, relegated to selling soundpacks for depreciated products?

Maschine and Komplete Kontrol support VST3. What they don't support, are 3rd party VST3.

Look at Super 8. It's VST3-only, but still supported for NKS and Loading in both Komplete Kontrol and Maschine. All Native Instruments VST3s are supported in Komplete Kontrol and Maschine. The lack of VST3 support is intentionally, and likely due to them being too conservative and wanting to avoid any issues with VST3 plug-ins in the software.

Given how much NKS is tied into VST2 I can understand NI being cautious when it comes to their 2 hosts. It looks like the strategy has been to convert their own plugins to VST3, while allowing just their own VST3 plugins to load in KK and Maschine, so they can thoroughly work out the kinks that are bound to arise from the mammoth task of transitioning the NKS framework over to VST3. But they have stated recently that they will open up to third party VST3s this autumn, it looks like originally it was going to be for NKS partners only but they have decided to open up to non NKS VST3's too now. Big problem there is they can make their own hosts open NKS patches made with VST2 Kontakt in the VST3 version but I wonder if they would be able to do the same so seamlessly for third party ones - I guess that might get messy.

[Trensharo]

Agree.

Though many DAWs seem to have implemented a similar feature many years ago. I think the VST compatibility and robustness of implementation is a bigger issue for them.

Also, the number of users any issues can affect is incredibly high for Native Instruments. There are a massive amount of Komplete Kontrol/Maschine users out there.

It is safer for a company like Bitwig to "forge ahead" with something like this than it is for companies like Steinberg or Native Instruments.

And to say NI has lost tons of money and shareholder value when the only users affected by Steinberg discontinuing VST2 are those on Mx Macs comes across as a bit of an exaggeration.

IMO, Native Instruments is getting railroaded by library developers abandoning Kontakt and developing their own sampling platforms (Spitfire, SINE, etc.), and users moving on from Komplete to third party virtual instrument/library developers.

And the price tag for the Maschine+ added to the really crappy CPU they used is... a choice.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

I cannot bring myself to care about CLAP. I feel like it's a bit DOA for the moment, since it will force developers to support a fourth plug-in format.

If you aren't a developer, or you aren't interested in beta testing, you can safely ignore it. Come back in a year or so and maybe there will be more exciting news.

If you fear that developers will be hurt by having to support a new format, the short answer is "no they won't." All software that works with CLAP also supports established formats; there is no user base that can only be reached through CLAP, and there likely won't be for a number of years. Developers who don't need it right now also don't have to worry about it.

If you see developers embracing it, and you're worried that they're making a mistake, try to have some patience, and a little more faith in their risk/reward analysis. A few developers are porting their software to CLAP because it is a lower-effort alternative (by some estimates, a 90% workload reduction) to what they were doing before. CLAP provides debugging tools that other formats do not, and having access to these tools alone can greatly simplify the process of making a plugin work with formats like VST3. I know that sounds weird and counter-intuitive, but remember, it was specifically designed that way by developers who needed to do exactly that.

[Trensharo]

That reads a bit like gaslighting.

From someone who has worked as a software developer... No, it isn't that free.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

Feel free to address my arguments.

[skijumptoes]

And people expecting them to jump on a 4th plug-in format and treat it as if there is no cost in doing so ... and as if the benefits far outweighs the costs... is incredibly disingenuous.

From a developer perspective, there's also the threat of Steinberg removing VST3 legacy support for MIDI, and any other such revisions having an effect or suddenly you become 'incompliant' - VST4 could be round the corner for all we know.

They say that VST3 is ready for MIDI 2.0 - but how true is that? Is it a bolt-on? Will it be as efficient to develop as CLAP may be (Being 'newer')? Will it require further license costs?

So it's not just a small pool of users wanting this jump, it appears that most has been developer driven so far(?).... Remember this was only a proof of concept step, that appears to be bedding into working rigs already.

Time will tell, I guess. But if we take a theoretical scenario whereby Bitwig, Reaper, Pro Tools, Studio One & Ableton adopt CLAP - we're potentially looking at 3 main formats (VST/CLAP/AU).

I can't believe that will happen, but it's possible 'if' CLAP is as easy to adopt as many have written.

VST3 is a pig, no doubt about it. And what's worse is so little of what makes it 'better' than VST2 is utilised. If CLAP inherently provides gains in CPU that alone is a great selling point, all other factors being equal.

[Trensharo]

Steinberg killed VST2 Off 8+ years after it was deprecated.

People are acting like it was in active development and bustling with no follow up and Steinberg just woke up one morning and said "no bueno."

Let's not exaggerate.

[Trensharo]

Feel free to address my arguments.

You quoted one sentence and bloviated a bunch of stuff that is basically unrelated to it. Why should I waste my time on that?

This is why it sounds a bit like gaslighting.

I'd address your "arguments" (weird term to use) if you actually took the time to address mine.

Quoting one sentence [out of context] and then going on to bloviate a mega paragraph and then some of projection that has nothing to do with what I wrote is... bizarre.

[Urs]

Steinberg killed VST2 Off 8+ years after it was deprecated.

VST2 is still the center of thousands of plug-ins that are being used today. They are wrapped to VST3, AU and other formats, but they are essentially VST2 in their core.

Steinberg has indicated that they will nullify the right to publish code made with the VST2 SDK for anyone who supports recent version of VST3. *This* means that thousands of plug-ins need to be refactored in a major way. But what would they refactor to? Clearly not to VST3 because the proprietary license contract poses too many future risks, e.g. having to refactor again within 6 months if an API or parts of that changes.

CLAP is designed to replace VST2 for these plug-ins as a simple and elegant interim format, which is easily wrapped to whatever else. This is why we have sample code for using CLAP with VSTGUI, because many of those plug-ins still use it. I'm convinced it's the quickest and fastest solution for these thousands of plug-ins, regardless of how many hosts support it.

In other words, CLAP is a way out for those who do not wish to depend on other corporations opaque decision making process.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

You quoted one sentence and bloviated a bunch of stuff that is basically unrelated to it. Why should I waste my time on that?

This is why it sounds a bit like gaslighting.

I'd address your "arguments" (weird term to use) if you actually took the time to address mine.

Quoting one sentence [out of context] and then going on to bloviate a mega paragraph and then some of projection that has nothing to do with what I wrote is... bizarre.

My post was a response to some statements you made about how CLAP competes with VST3 and other formats. I was trying to say that this interpretation is not accurate, but maybe my response was too general, so it ended up coming across as incoherent.

CLAP will help increase the speed of VST3 adoption and the quality of VST3 support. Urs explained some of the reasons why. I mentioned a few others. There are more reasons. They're complicated. Any attempt to explain them will be verbose. It's up to you whether you have the patience for that.

[Trensharo]

CLAP will help increase the speed of VST3 adoption and the quality of VST3 support.

Lol. I cannot. Bye.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

OK.

[Dionysos]

I guess trying to argue with someone who wrote a sentence as meaningful as "I feel like it's a bit DOA for the moment" was a fool's errand from the beginning.

[pdxindy]

I guess trying to argue with someone who wrote a sentence as meaningful as "I feel like it's a bit DOA for the moment" was a fool's errand from the beginning.

Some people like to take the opposite position of something that is generating excitement. Obviously CLAP is not DOA as the initial interest in it from developers has exceeded expectations. CLAP is off to a great start.

[WasteLand]

as a MPE addict, poly modulation is quite interesting. although i seem to use MPE more, than poly modulation (even in soft modulars, although not quite true..).

The ability to use Bitwig modulators for polyphonic modulation in CLAP plugins is great for MPE. For example, there are a bunch of parameters in ACE and Diva that cannot be modulated via MPE. Now with the CLAP versions of ACE and Diva, you can do that.

Also, you can now do interesting stuff like adding a per voice Bitwig Steps modulator to add a modulation sequence to a parameter like filter cutoff and then use per note MPE pressure (aftertouch) to only bring in that sequence on specific notes as you press down.

The MPE possibilities have increased significantly with CLAP version of the u-he synths.

i don't own ACE nor Diva. of course i own the 'beast'; Zebra 2 (+HZ).

the last paragraph sounds interesting.

i don't have a lot, only 2 CLAP plugins, o yes PaulXStretch. but Surge, will come, and Vital (paid), but both aren't fully 'CLAP', or in the way of poly-mod, Baconpaul, had in, there are 3 threads, a thread an interesting post about the 4 ways to handle poly modulation, per note, voice, and forgot the other 2... i think it are the CLAP ways, based of course on...

i hope CLAP will also come for the plugins i own, and can use the advantages... Plasmonic? Generate? Zebra (i won't say it....)....

so many.... the more niche stuff....Crusher-X as CLAP..... well, that would be something... don't know if it will happen... already a beast to work with, but for me Crusher-X and CLAP.... poly modulations.... grains that go all over the place..... well it already can do it... but still... (i believe he doesn't use JUCE, considering what he says about it, but i could be wrong.)

o well... we (end-users) will wait and see, and use, hopefully.

my bitwig upgrade plan is ready to go, when, of course personally; the plugins i think have the most use for it; will have a CLAP version.