Pigments 3.5 vs Dune 3.5

[Dencheg]

You’re conflating two different things. A synthesizer is not a guitar, at least not past the keyboard aspect of it. So, no one labels frets and strings and a whammy bar, just like no one labels keys, pitch and mod wheels.

In a synthesizer, you are crafting the instrument to your desire. Imagine making a hollow bodied patch for a guitar by chiseling out cavities in the body. (Not going to talk about simulation of resonant objects.) So, the synthesizer requires a completely different set of controls with a different interface.

Fair enough, the guitar is like the keyboard part of a synth.
Ok, my point (or rather a joke) about visualising OSCs still stands. I mean it's nice to know what's going on, but to see all the stuff in motion? Where is the reasonable bound?
To me it's like that: showing almost everithing, like Pigments, might be distracting. I'd rather simply see the static knob values, like in Synapse or u-he synths.

Nevertheless, I find Pigments enjoyable, when in the mood for audiovisual treat

[chk071]

Well, the original question was: "Which is the better VST and why? Pigments 3.5 or Dune 3.5?"

So, you can be pretty sure that it's the latter.

Oh, well, then neither. They are both at 3.5! Duh.

Hehe. It's version 3.7 for Pigments anyway. Guess it was 3.5 when the OP created this thread back in January.

[Igro]

You can hear whether or not an LFO is in sync or free-running but your ears can't tell you if it's LFO 1, LFO 2, LFO 3 or LFO 4. But the modulation animations in HY-Poly or Pigments will let you see which one it is, quickly and easily.

One click on the LFO tab tells me all that, no animations needed.

Except it could be an MSEG that is functioning like an LFO and in that case you would have to click in as many as 5 places to find it. And what if an LFO and an MSEG have almost identical settings? You wont be able to tell which of them is actually the mod source unless you start tweaking that source to hear if it affects the sound... or go look in the mod matrix to confirm.

A visual cue would mean no clicks or uncertainty... also, lots of synths have the option to right-click on a parameter and it lists the mod sources. Dune doesn't even have that. And you still have to go to the matrix every time you want to set-up modulation or adjust a mod depth.

Dune requires lots of trips to the mod matrix and the mod matrix is a tiny little thing inside some fake hardware screen. You can only see 7 mod slots at once without scrolling. And you cannot scroll quickly because trackpads and mousewheels only work on the little scrollbar on the right. You cannot sort the matrix by source or target... you cannot rearrange the slots or disable a slot.

Pigments is in a different league. In Pigments, I can select a parameter like filter cutoff. Then the center modulation area shows all the modulators, which ones are assigned to cutoff and the depths which can be edited right there in relation to each other.

And Pigments goes both directions. I can select a source, say Velocity. Then I can add as many targets as I want just by dragging the mod ring around the parameter. You can disable an individual target and also add a side chain modulator and set its depth.

Moreover, in Pigments I can instantly see what lfo shape is used for modulation, without going to the matrix. If Bones is using his ears, why using a daw at all, just use a tape recorded.

[rezoneight]

Ever seen people closing the eyes while listening to music?

I can play piano with my eyes closed because I know where the keys are. Has nothing to do with having visual cues for modifying a synthesizer.

Or people playing guitars behind their necks without complaining that the tone and volume knobs suddenly got unlabeled?

Ever have to use an old synth that requires you to menu-dive to modify sounds? That essentially takes away the visual feedback part of modifying sounds?

Try to play a synth for a day without hearing it, and you'll get why there is a group of people which doesn't really need to see every lfo jumping around.

Depends on the synth. Knob-per-function? Anyone knowledgable enough would likely be able to make a sound they can't hear. Mod-matrix complex enough it requires menu-diving? Now it gets dicey. There is a reason knob-per-function came back and had nothing to do with "using your ears".

Bu the way, would also be cool to see the current value of osciallators. Why limit ourselves with LFOs or envelopes?

Pigments does this.

[CrystalWizard]

I don't see with my ears.

try lsd or mushrooms

Always works for me!

Back when i built hardware synths i learned a valuable lesson. At first i skimped on LEDs and other visual elements (because back then they used so much power like 30mA a diode in some cases). I quickly realized my mistake and just started using bigger power supplies and adding as much visual elements as possible. These were big modulars so there's that but they were so simple compared to a modern softsynth like Pigments or Dune. Use your ears when dealing with synths HW or SW can be tricky, for determining results, yes, your ears are definitely what counts. For getting those results it ears and eyes (and fingers).

For me the Pigments GUI is the best (kinda the next step from Massive v1

[Dencheg]

Pigments does this.

No, it doesn't. It shows the LFO phase, but not the source OSC phase.
Since it shows velocity (which I just pressed with my numb hands) and the ADSR phase (which I just set up and forgot), might as well show the OSC phase. The high frequency one.
As a piano player, at this point you might get me.
Very few params require visual confirmation, and better to show fewer than too many.

[BONES]

One click on the LFO tab tells me all that, no animations needed.

Unless it's not actually an LFO but an MSEG, then it's multiple clicks until you find the right thing, instead of just a quick glance.

(also I don't think more synths than number of fingers on one hand sound as good as Dune; the difference might be under some non-significant for you threshold)

This might be relevant if I could only have one synth but when I can have hundreds, it becomes irrelevant. In my hardware days, I had a rule that every new thing I purchased had to replace at least two existing pieces of equipment but the restrictions that drove that in hardware simply don't exist in software. If I can have 10 synths that, combined, can do everything a synth like DUNE can do, what's the difference? Add in the fact that the combined cost of those 10 synths is less than half the cost of one ubersynth and it starts to make even more sense. It's why a set of open-end spanners (wrenches) is a better option than a shifter.

of course, for specific things there might be better tools than Dune, even if it's the bestest in general

The thing with it, though, is that you have to deal with all of it, all the time, even when you just want to do something simple. I can make an awesome bassline or string pad from scratch in JP6K in about a minute, whereas in DUNE it will take 4 or 5 minutes, because there are so many options you have to dig into to get the thing you need for that particular job. So, obviously, I am always going to reach for JP6K first when I want one of those things and I'll only fire up DUNE on those rare occasions JP6K fails to deliver. To keep the whole topic covered, I will never fire up Pigments or anything because i don't think it sounds good enough. I can't put my finger on what it is, but Pigments, like Hive, just lacks that last little bit of something for me.

In the past I have asked Rich about doing a stripped down, lower cost version of DUNE, something without all the bells and whistles, but he's never been interested. A version of DUNE with just 2 x V/A osc, 1 x filter, 2 x ADSR and 1 x MSEG, with an LFO or two, a few basic effects and no dmaned centre screen would be my dream synth. DUNE v1 was as close as it ever got.

What always puzzles me the most is how you can't decide yourself, when for both synths there is a demo version available.

I get it. Sometimes you demo a synhth and it seems brilliant but after a few weeks of actual use, you relaise it is mor elimited or a lot less versatile that you thought it would be. Depending on demo restrictions, it can be hard to get a good long-term view of how something will work out. e.g. If saving patches is disabled, you won't spend a week refining a mix using a synth demo.

BONES if you're having a hard time understanding why sight/hearing are better than just hearing alone: go a full day with your eyes closed.

Is your thinking really so shallow? It's not about sight and sound, it's about getting results. It's a simple case of if it sounds good, it is good. You may feel you need the crutch of being able to "see" your frequency spread but, if you are doing it all the time, I'd suggest it is simply a crutch.

I was recently having a hard time pinning down why one of our new songs was lacking that last bit of "oomph!" it needed. I tried a few things but got no joy so, eventually, I added a spectrum meter to every channel so I could see where there was room to boost frequencies for certain parts, because just using my ears was too hit and miss in that specific situation. But for me those situations are rare and I put it down to not having had my new monitors long enough to be totally comfortable with them yet, so I needed a crutch to get me through on that occasion. To me, that's what those things are there for; for the times your usual tools aren't getting the job done. I fyou us ethem too often, you come to rely on them too much and you don't develop your ear to the level it should be at. Trust yourself, you're probably much better at this than you think you are.

Try to spend entire day without water and then compare with a joyful water day

I don't drink water. It's disgusting stuff and it doesn't quench my thirst.

[_leras]

Seems like there's a few bits of.cross talk here.

A lot of the visual aids, I'd say since the OG massive, are more for programming than for playing. If you can easily see where an LFO is routed to it just makes it simpler to understand how a patch is working.

Things like pigments and massive which show how much of a modulator is connected to other, to me, are much more intuitive that a simple mod matrix and are much quicker to work with.

Also, from massive, these types of visual approaches make it simple to tab things like multiple envelopes and LFOs and fit more information into each component.

When you can see what ENV1 is going to, you can remember it's a sharp envelope and not need to keep looking at it to know what it is.

I don't think these things really impair the listening to, or playing, of a patch. You'll still need to play and tweak a patch manually to dial in the sound you want.

[_morton_]

One click on the LFO tab tells me all that, no animations needed.

Unless it's not actually an LFO but an MSEG, then it's multiple clicks until you find the right thing, instead of just a quick glance.

Two clicks, if youre really clueless, and haven't looked in the MM

[BONES]

Two unnecessary clicks, minimum. Because if we're talking about DUNE, you can't see the MM by default, so you have to click to get to it, then you might have to scroll to be sur eyou're looking at the right thing becaus eyou can't see the whole MM at once. All those clicks add up. But it's less about the clicks than getting that overview of everything on one screen. That's why I use DS-Thorn all the time, not DUNE. And I can honestly say that in the 3 years or so I have been using Thorn, I have never once had to look at the MM. In fact, I had to load it up just now to confirm that it has one.

[_morton_]

The number of clicks is irrelevant, when I'm designing a sound I make hundreds of clicks, another 2 is part of the process. Once it's done I know what does what, so I don't need to crawl around the gui to find out.

[kmonkey]

The number of clicks is irrelevant, when I'm designing a sound I make hundreds of clicks, and another 2 are part of the process.

For you maybe. For me, if a basic function in creation involves menu diving and 25-35 clicks while other competitive product is doing the same with two clicks - I know which one I will purchase

Good thing is that there are trials today so we can all decide what works best for us,

[_morton_]

They're not basic functions tho, they are complex modulations. If I need to go into 8 layers and teak each voice card to get a sound/effect I want, that's what I do. I don't settle for near enough because it involves a few extra clicks. I won't compromise sound quality when it is available to me.

[pdxindy]

The number of clicks is irrelevant, when I'm designing a sound I make hundreds of clicks, another 2 is part of the process. Once it's done I know what does what, so I don't need to crawl around the gui to find out.

That you think it is just 2 additional clicks indicates that you don't actually do deep sound design in Pigments and Dune to compare.

In real-world use, Dune is far more cumbersome. And the more modulation you add, the more friction there is in Dune while Pigments stays fast and agile. At that point, Pigments is like an order of magnitude easier.

[_morton_]

I found it to be the opposite.

Each to their own.