GHOST (beta) - New 6 osc wavetable FM synth

[gentleclockdivider]

Take the following scenario
OP3 goes into OP2 goes into OP1 , al serially connected , and OP1 as carrier
OP3 Needs to have and instant attack , and very short decay
Op2 also needs a instant attack and verr short decay
Op1 ( the carrier ) needs a medium slow attack
NOw , this is doable in GHost when ENV 1 (with a slow attack) is NOT used for OP1 because otherwise it would also affect OP3 and 2 and we don't want that .
The only workaround is to assign another envelope t op OP1 that is not the master envelope , right , problem solved ?
Noppes , now lets double the operators to 6 so we need 6 independent envelopes , see were I am going to ?

I can guess what you're getting at, but the patch you're proposing does not make much sense. When the carrier (OP1) has a medium slow attack, but both modulators (OP2 & OP3) have a very short decay, the effect of the modulators would have worn off, before the carrier is audible.
Also, in my understanding ENV1 does not affect any OSC individually, but rather the whole audio signal after the FM-section, before the FX-section.
That aside, the more envelopes the better. I agree on that. Also more LFOs (which you can use as MSEGs, by the way...)

The effect of both fast initiated operators would indeed be masked by the slower attack of the carrier envelope it's just an example I gave of something that would it make difficult to achieve with a shared env .
Yep , Ghost's ENV 1 is the master amp multiplier and that's something that is NOT present on traditional FM synths because it wouldn't make sense , and that's what FMR was trying to explain to you .

[gentleclockdivider]

I am also not sure if the current implementation of modulation is the way to go , if you modulate the fm amount by drag dropping on the matrix , fi we want to modulate from full to zero we need to set the matrix amount to zero and adjust the mod amount in the mod window .
This way we need to constantly switch to the mod page to see the mod amount .

You do realize, that you can adjust the modulation amount in the matrix by clicking and dragging the coloured dot, don't you?

Noppes I didn't , that makes it easier indeed

[SeBaer]

Yep , Ghost's ENV 1 is the master amp multiplier and that's something that is NOT present on traditional FM synths because it wouldn't make sense , and that's what FMR was trying to explain to you .

But Ghost isn't a traditional FM-synth. It's also quite well suited for subtractive, and also to a certain amount additive, synthesis.

[gentleclockdivider]

I know , if the developer would change env 1 name to GLOBAL envelope it would save a lot of confussion .
I do think the synth has great potential nonetheless ,will surely keep an eye on this one

[gentleclockdivider]

Also encountering some weird zipper noise on note release
Simple 2 op config , both 1:1 ratio , modulator 90 degree phase shift and fast decaying envelope.
https://app.box.com/s/jbysb6ns24be0glw84t0tdgumuzd5mw4
https://app.box.com/s/e4661zrivsqcwlxirc0icc0lrq72airj

[SeBaer]

Take the following scenario
OP3 goes into OP2 goes into OP1 , al serially connected , and OP1 as carrier
OP3 Needs to have and instant attack , and very short decay
Op2 also needs a instant attack and verr short decay
Op1 ( the carrier ) needs a medium slow attack
NOw , this is doable in GHost when ENV 1 (with a slow attack) is NOT used for OP1 because otherwise it would also affect OP3 and 2 and we don't want that .
The only workaround is to assign another envelope t op OP1 that is not the master envelope , right , problem solved ?
Noppes , now lets double the operators to 6 so we need 6 independent envelopes , see were I am going to ?

I can guess what you're getting at, but the patch you're proposing does not make much sense. When the carrier (OP1) has a medium slow attack, but both modulators (OP2 & OP3) have a very short decay, the effect of the modulators would have worn off, before the carrier is audible.
Also, in my understanding ENV1 does not affect any OSC individually, but rather the whole audio signal after the FM-section, before the FX-section.
That aside, the more envelopes the better. I agree on that. Also more LFOs (which you can use as MSEGs, by the way...)

The effect of both fast initiated operators would indeed be masked by the slower attack of the carrier envelope it's just an example I gave of something that would it make difficult to achieve with a shared env .
Yep , Ghost's ENV 1 is the master amp multiplier and that's something that is NOT present on traditional FM synths because it wouldn't make sense , and that's what FMR was trying to explain to you .

I thought about it again: When you want to mimic the behaviour of a classic FM synth, you would use the same envelope for the output amount,the FM-amount and also feedback amount. So you're down to 1 envelope per oscillator. That means you're missing only one envelope, if you're not using any envelopes on multiple oscillators.
If you wanted to modulate each value individually you would need 18 envelopes, and that's not even considering filter cut-off and resonance, distortion amount, numerous LFO speeds, wavetable position, morph, and loads more you could modulate. But at some point the sheer number of envelopes would get overwhelming.
In essence some more envelopes would be good, but maybe cap the number at 10 or 12...

Noppes I didn't , that makes it easier indeed

Happy to help.

[fmr]

I'm trying to understand what you want to say. But I guess you did not fully understand, what I tried to say.
The oscillators don't have an output volume knob, so you need to assign the envelope in the FM-Matrix. If you route an oscillator directly to output you can assign a value. That's the amount of output. If you assign an envelope to this, the previously assigned value is the base line to which the envelope adds.

The oscillators don't have an output "knob" but they have an output "square" in the matrix window, as you mentioned. However, that one doesn't work the way it should, IMO. Actually, this is a very important point. The amount in the square should be the maximum reaching level controlled by the envelope, and the envelope would start from zero up to that level. Not the way it is implemented and you described, which forces us to set the volme to zero to have the envelope in full control of the volume. This, besides being unintuitive, prevents us to properly use the synth for FM. So, Ghost will end as a synth that "has" FM, but IS NOT an FM synth.

Try it out: set output to zero, assign an evelope with positve power.
And now set the output to 100, and assign the envelope with negative power.
You will get exactly the result of what you discribed as desired behaviour.

Yes, if I set the volume to 0, I get the result I wanted, but that way I cannot control the relative volumes of each oscillator, can I? I also tried your suggestion of setting the output to 100 and give a negative modulation to the envelope, and the result is (surprise) a negative envelope. So what? How does that help me?

And brillantly, you can modulate the output of an oscillator indepently from the FM-amount it has on other oscillators.

I'm not sure how that is "brilliant", but whatever. I have that in other FM synths. That's what the modulation matrix is there for.

Forget Vital, forget Serum. This is a completely different perspective.

It's not completely different. The usage of ENV1 is the same. It's hardwired to the output amplification, not of the indicidual oscillators, but the sum of all signals, pre-FX. And also this is not a pure FM-synth, it also capable of subtractive synthesis.

The usage is NOT the same. In Vital the envelope raises from 0 up the volume level set for each oscillator. In Ghost the envelope seems to raise to 100 from the amount set to each oscillator (I'm not yet sure, but I'm sure it doesn't behave exactly like Vital, unless you set the volume to 0, which is not what I expect or want to). This means you cannot have different levels to each oscillator unless you have them controlled by envelope 1 (and in that case, I can only have different start volumes, but not overall volumes). Which brings us down to zero once again. Not to mention as gentleclockdivider already pointed, that if we put ENV 1 apart, we end up with five envelopes for six oscillators. One more reason to eliminate the current implementation, leaving one envelope for each oscillaotr, and implementing the output level in the matrix as a real oscillator level (maximum level), to be modulated by each envelope. This will not collide with the wavetable and subtractive part and will allow us to use FM the way we are used to.

I am not attacking and dismissing Ghost, quite the opposite. I am doing what I do anytime I beta test something. I am pointing what, IMO are design flaws and bad options, which I think is exactly what the developer wants and needs. I am trying to contribute to make Ghost a better and more useful synth. OTOH you seem to be very defensive, and more worried in defending the developer and his options than to give (constructive) criticism. I'm OK that you think Ghost is perfect as it is, but that's not my opinion.

[fmr]

When you want to mimic the behaviour of a classic FM synth, you would use the same envelope for the output amount,the FM-amount and also feedback amount. So you're down to 1 envelope per oscillator. That means you're missing only one envelope, if you're not using any envelopes on multiple oscillators.
If you wanted to modulate each value individually you would need 18 envelopes, and that's not even considering filter cut-off and resonance, distortion amount, numerous LFO speeds, wavetable position, morph, and loads more you could modulate. But at some point the sheer number of envelopes would get overwhelming.
In essence some more envelopes would be good, but maybe cap the number at 10 or 12...

I don't think we need 18 envelopes either. In Blue II, for example, you have six oscillator envelopes, two filter envelopes, a global volume envelope and four MS envelopes. If you leave out the MS envelopes, you end up with nine "regular" envelopes. That may be enough right now (although having MS envelopes would be great). But you also have eight LFOs (I think we definitely need more LFOs, and have some sort of randomization function, like S&H in them), three sequencers and two vectors. Anyway, Blue II is one of the most powereful synths out there, but is a good example for Ghost.

[SeBaer]

A graphical bug:
When you instanciate a reverb in the effects section, there is a graphical glitch in the EQ. Once you touch the high frequency, the graphic snaps back to normal, i.e. you see the entire EQ-curve.

Hm, this doesn't seem to happen in Cakewalk. Here the EQ-curve of the reverb module is correct from the beginning. So it might be Reaper specific.

[gentleclockdivider]

So is there an easy way (if possible ) to route multiple osc's through the same filter ?
I don't mean the filter as a stereo effect in the fx bus , but just regular polyvoice filters

[exacoustics]

If I have three oscillators going to the output, I don't want the volume contour of ALL of them to be controlled by Env 1.

If I could figure out an elegant and intuitive way to fit it into the design/GUI layout I probably would. This was planned in the initial spec for features, but was sacrificed when the GUI was mocked up.

Why not create an hardwired envelope for each oscillator, labelling them ENV A, ENV B, etc. and then add two more envelopes, one for the global volume contour (amplitude envelope) and another for the filter (FILTER ENVELOPE)? You may even just harwire each of the already existant envelopes to the oscillator, and simply add another one to allow filter modulation (this one could even be in the filter section).

Adding this would work, but the question is where can it be elegantly placed in the GUI?
A potential solution may be to add an OSC SYNC or OSC DETACH button, which would toggle between ENV1 controlling all OSCs and ENV1-6 controlling OSC A-F.
Anyway, interested to hear what your thoughts are, and feel free to shoot my an email (see my website).

We don't have any filter parameter available as a modulation destination. This is really BAD.

Perhaps you're experiencing a bug in v0.3.3 (I recently updated the GUI knobs, so something may have broken). You should be able to modulate the filter cutoff with any mod by clicking & dragging the mod over the filter knobs and dropping it. If this doesn't work, open and close the interface. It works for me in a new instance of the plugin. Alternatively, go to the MODS table and you can select the Destination in the menus.

You can't. Just try it. Assign another envelope (for example ENV 2) to the volume of oscillator A, and give it a very slow attack. You will notice that you will get sound immediately, despite the fact that you should hear a very slow volume crescendo. Now do the opposite: configure ENV 1 for a very slow attack, and give a very fast attack to ENV 2. This time you will get a very slow crescende. despite the fact that ENV 2 has a vey fast attack. Don't know about you, but this isn't the way I want the envelopes to behave.

This works perfectly for me. Perhaps you're experiencing a bug? Send me an email (see my website) and I'll send you the presets where I got this to work.

The GUI is too small for a 4K display (even in a regular 1K display it should be bigger). It desperately needs options to resize it.

You can already resize it by dragging the bottom right corner. If this doesn't work, let me know your OS and which DAW you're using so I can debug it.
I've tested this in Ableton, FL Studio, Logic, Reaper and Bitwig on Mac & Windows.
v0.3.3 has maximum resizable dimensions of 1584x1440 pixels, which is 66% the height of a 4k screen. Let me know if this is still too small and I'll increase it. I do all my development on a 2k monitor and I cannot fit the plugins maximum size on my screen.

[teilo]

[deleted]

[exacoustics]

A graphical bug:
When you instanciate a reverb in the effects section, there is a graphical glitch in the EQ. Once you touch the high frequency, the graphic snaps back to normal, i.e. you see the entire EQ-curve.Reverb.PNG

Good find, thanks letting me know. I've experienced the same problem in the Chorus GUI but still cannot consistently recreate it. They must be related. Fortunately it's restricted to the GUI and not the audio.

Also encountering some weird zipper noise on note release
Simple 2 op config , both 1:1 ratio , modulator 90 degree phase shift and fast decaying envelope.
https://app.box.com/s/jbysb6ns24be0glw84t0tdgumuzd5mw4
https://app.box.com/s/e4661zrivsqcwlxirc0icc0lrq72airj

Good find. Which DAW are you having this problem this in?

[fmr]

If I have three oscillators going to the output, I don't want the volume contour of ALL of them to be controlled by Env 1.

If I could figure out an elegant and intuitive way to fit it into the design/GUI layout I probably would. This was planned in the initial spec for features, but was sacrificed when the GUI was mocked up.

I think you should rethink the GUI to accomodate more enveloipes. These are desperately need (as well as more LFOs).

Why not create a hardwired envelope for each oscillator, labelling them ENV A, ENV B, etc. and then add two more envelopes, one for the global volume contour (amplitude envelope) and another for the filter (FILTER ENVELOPE)? You may even just harwire each of the already existant envelopes to the oscillator, and simply add another one to allow filter modulation (this one could even be in the filter section).

Adding this would work, but the question is where can it be elegantly placed in the GUI?
A potential solution may be to add an OSC SYNC or OSC DETACH button, which would toggle between ENV1 controlling all OSCs and ENV1-6 controlling OSC A-F.
Anyway, interested to hear what your thoughts are, and feel free to shoot my an email (see my website).

The GUI could be redesigned (for example following the Arturia DX7 V example). It seems you folowed Serum/Vital as examples for the GUI, but these don't have SIX oscillators.

Anyway, I can't see a reason why you cannot have extra tabs in the oscillator section to accomodate more envelopes. Right now, you have six. I think you could extend the number to nine and that would solve the problems. Also, instead of exposing the tabs for all the envelopes horizontally, why not have just a single tab, and when we click it open a drop down menu to select which envelope we want? The same could be done for the LFO section.

But if you are not willing to do that, a toggle, as you suggest, may be a solution. Anything that allows us to change the curent behavior. But the way enveloipes work with volume needs to change also. They should always raise from 0 up to the max volume defined in the output of the matrix, IMO

We don't have any filter parameter available as a modulation destination. This is really BAD.

Perhaps you're experiencing a bug in v0.3.3 (I recently updated the GUI knobs, so something may have broken). You should be able to modulate the filter cutoff with any mod by clicking & dragging the mod over the filter knobs and dropping it. If this doesn't work, open and close the interface. It works for me in a new instance of the plugin. Alternatively, go to the MODS table and you can select the Destination in the menus.

I found the problem. You attached the filter to the oscillator, so we have the filter parameters as destinations in the oscillator section. Personally, I find this overkill. I would rather have one or two global filters, and a way to route the oscillators to one filter, or the two (both in parallel or in series). That's the way I'm used to in other synths.

You can't. Just try it. Assign another envelope (for example ENV 2) to the volume of oscillator A, and give it a very slow attack. You will notice that you will get sound immediately, despite the fact that you should hear a very slow volume crescendo. Now do the opposite: configure ENV 1 for a very slow attack, and give a very fast attack to ENV 2. This time you will get a very slow crescende. despite the fact that ENV 2 has a vey fast attack. Don't know about you, but this isn't the way I want the envelopes to behave.

This works perfectly for me. Perhaps you're experiencing a bug? Send me an email (see my website) and I'll send you the presets where I got this to work.

Again, I found the problem. Uou can do what I described, but you have to define the output volume to 0, configure ENV 1 as a gate, and assign another envelope to control the volume of each oscillator. The way you implemented, I see two problems:
1. You can't give different volumes to each oscillator, because the envelopes work always summing to the set volume (I would prefer to have to set volume as the highest volume reached by the envelope, and having it always start at 0 - this is the way I'm used synths to work)
2. You will always miss one envelope, since ENV 1 doesn't count.

The GUI is too small for a 4K display (even in a regular 1K display it should be bigger). It desperately needs options to resize it.

You can already resize it by dragging the bottom right corner. If this doesn't work, let me know your OS and which DAW you're using so I can debug it.
I've tested this in Ableton, FL Studio, Logic, Reaper and Bitwig on Mac & Windows.
v0.3.3 has maximum resizable dimensions of 1584x1440 pixels, which is 66% the height of a 4k screen. Let me know if this is still too small and I'll increase it. I do all my development on a 2k monitor and I cannot fit the plugins maximum size on my screen.

Have to try that. I wil tell you later if it worked.

EDIT: It works, but I (and I suppose any other user) would never guess that's the resize method. Maybe adding the classical diagonal stripes in the lower right corner of the GUI?

[gentleclockdivider]

A graphical bug:
When you instanciate a reverb in the effects section, there is a graphical glitch in the EQ. Once you touch the high frequency, the graphic snaps back to normal, i.e. you see the entire EQ-curve.Reverb.PNG

Good find, thanks letting me know. I've experienced the same problem in the Chorus GUI but still cannot consistently recreate it. They must be related. Fortunately it's restricted to the GUI and not the audio.

Also encountering some weird zipper noise on note release
Simple 2 op config , both 1:1 ratio , modulator 90 degree phase shift and fast decaying envelope.
https://app.box.com/s/jbysb6ns24be0glw84t0tdgumuzd5mw4
https://app.box.com/s/e4661zrivsqcwlxirc0icc0lrq72airj

Good find. Which DAW are you having this problem this in?

Renoise