The thing is they could have sold the add-ons concept in the long term if they had been honest and said something like, "Hey we are truly sorry about this, but we are going to have to change our licencing model. Unfortunately, after your current upgrade plan expires it will be replaced with a new one whereby only upgrades to Bitwig Studio itself will be included. As we produce more niche products and libraries, these will now be considered as add-ons to the core programme."Izoptic wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:37 pm
"OK, then how about..... ADD-ONS??"
The rest is tragic history.
[Fixed in 4.4] Weird bug: latest "Spectral Suite" update not included in upgrade plan
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- KVRist
- 53 posts since 20 Aug, 2018
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- KVRer
- 14 posts since 18 Sep, 2022
Yes. I'm really starting to think that this choice of license design is a good candidate for the root cause of the problem we're now seeing. It has created a weird dilemma for everybody involved.krazzmann wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:40 pm Means, Bitwig’s chosen a troublesome model although for the cashflow it makes no difference.
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- KVRist
- 208 posts since 4 May, 2020
A big reason why so many are angry/ frustrated/ sad etc is until the add-ons fiasco made people question what they were up to Bitwig was a genuinely fantastic company to support and nothing is as good as Bitwig for many people when you get into it.. come on Bitwig team, I still love it dearly.. lets not go too far with the anger, I don't think I can get as creative with any other daw, until Bitwigs next move I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt now for my own sake of wanting big updates in the future.. still a weird move by them but lets see what happens next is my thoughts.
- KVRist
- 317 posts since 13 Mar, 2003 from San Diego
Exactly!krazzmann wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:50 pm After a lot of thinking, I start to believe that the whole idea of the upgrade plan was the wrong idea. To freely quote an ex US president: It’s the psychology, stupid.
Many people say that with buying the update plan they finance Bitwig’s development in advance and now they are pissed that Bitwig spent their money for working on add-ons. Buying an Ableton release gives you the feeling you are paying for something they have built and now you are buying it. I say in the end of the day when buying Bitwig’s upgrade plan it’s actually the same: you are paying for this what you get right now.
You can ask any economist. Virtually every bigger company funds investments like developing a new product with a credit. Even Apple does it, although they are the company with the most cash on the planet and that has to do with cashflow. When customers buy the product then you don’t pay for the development of the product, it only contributes to the cashflow. And you can believe that for Bitwig it’s the same.
See, pay-for-a-release and pay-for-an-upgrade-plan is actually the same from a cashflow perspective of a company. It’s a different thing only in the customer’s perception. What sounds like a smart idea, a middle ground between sales and subscription, actually now backfires because of this model’s psychology.
What I'm seeing after reading 64 pages (gods help me) of comments reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the upgrade plan - which has formed expectations that have clearly not been met. Proof of this is in the various ways people are approaching upgrading, and even what they call it, which is more often than not a "subscription." Bitwig inadvertently revealed they had already backed themselves in a corner way before the release of the add-ons. The confusion has been clear from day one - this release only brought it to the surface.
If they had released a virtual Banjo, Harmonica, and Accordion suite of plugins, this comment would likely be on page 3. This goes to show that what plugins they did release are something people want and want bad enough to switch DAWs over. That's a good thing.
I believe Bitwig is faced with something far more complicated than just giving people the plugins and saying they are sorry. And because this is deeply complicated, I'm fine with giving them the time to work through it - trusting it is sorted out in due time. The immediate need for this to be resolved is silly, but I do think they should, at a minimum ask people for their patience while they work on the best solution.
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- KVRist
- 53 posts since 20 Aug, 2018
The overriding sentiment here, Twitter, Gearspace, Reddit, etc etc is that Bitwig should apologize and honour their upgrade agreement, They then could possibly think about possible changes and approaches. Even that would be damage limitation, but the bulk of the damage has already possibly irretrievably been done. They have destroyed any sense of trust.h2ogun99 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:49 am
I believe Bitwig is faced with something far more complicated than just giving people the plugins and saying they are sorry. And because this is deeply complicated, I'm fine with giving them the time to work through it - trusting it is sorted out in due time. The immediate need for this to be resolved is silly, but I do think they should, at a minimum ask people for their patience while they work on the best solution.
How can that be regained or can it even?
- KVRian
- 929 posts since 8 Mar, 2008 from Crestview, Florida
More thoughts...
- KVRian
- 973 posts since 24 Oct, 2006
Forgive me, but I'm not sure if anyone has posted the EULA itself in this thread, and yet, it is exactly that about which there is disagreement. Here are the applicable passages from Bitwig's EULA which came with Bitwig Studio 4.3.8. There is no question, actually, that they are, in fact, breaking their own contract with their users prior to 4.3.9. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just not reading the contract or is being purposefully ignorant. Below is printed the entire section of the EULA concerning the "scope" of the agreement. Note especially point 1.4 below:
(BOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)
II. Bitwig Studio Final Version (“Final Version”)
1. Scope
1.1. This EULA applies to the following editions of the Final Version that are available, in the latest release respectively: “Demo”, “Trial”, “Standard”, “EDU”, “Standard Site”, “EDU Site”, “NFR”, „16-Track“ and „8-Track“. Whilst each edition equips the User with the same software, the editions vary as regards both to the scope of functions activated and the rights of use granted under this EULA.
1.2. This EULA also applies for bug fix updates, provided they are made available to the User by Bitwig GmbH. Bitwig GmbH is under no obligation however to make any bug fix updates available to the User.
1.3. This EULA also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions in all editions except the Demo Edition. Without purchasing a license for a paid version of Bitwig Studio, the Demo and Trial Edition’s scope of functions cannot be extended by means of upgrades. The scope of functions of the other editions can be extended by means of upgrades. Upgrades are provided under a separate contractual agreement: they are not covered by the contractual agreement under which the User receives the Final Version. This still applies even if the upgrade is a new version of the Final Version (e.g. V 2.0).
1.4. This EULA also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons. Sound-Packs and Add-Ons provide additional audio content and/or features to be used with the Final Version.
(EOQ)
Nota bene: Bitwig has described Spectral Suite as an "add-on;" this is not an "interpretation" of the packages forced by an outside agency with no connection to the company. Two quotes, the first from the ad page for Spectral Suite, the second from the official explanation of the change in business model on the Bitwig site:
(With emphasis appropriate to the point being made for each of these)
(BOQ)
Spectral Suite is the very first add-on for Bitwig Studio, and it's available now with an introductory price of 79 USD/EUR.
(EOQ)
(BOQ)
Why add-ons on top of the 12-month upgrade plan?
Core features of Bitwig Studio will continuously be developed as part of the 12-month upgrade plan. Highly specialized features, like devices or additional content such as presets and sound libraries, will occasionally be developed as add-ons. This way, we can keep the upgrade plan affordable while giving you the choice to purchase specific add-on features that enhance your workflow.
Will I still get feature updates as part of my 12-month upgrade plan?
Yes, you will. Since releasing Bitwig Studio 4.0 in July 2021, we have released 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 Updates, all with significant feature additions. And more is on the way! Sign up to our newsletter here to be among the first to find out what's next.
(EOQ)
While perhaps some of the responses have been strong, it is the type of reaction one is likely to see when one knows they are being swindled (for whatever reason or motivation.)
Using Bitwig's own wording, it is clear that they have broken their contract with us, their userbase. There is no debate about this, even from Bitwig's perspective if they are willing to be honest about it.
(BOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)
II. Bitwig Studio Final Version (“Final Version”)
1. Scope
1.1. This EULA applies to the following editions of the Final Version that are available, in the latest release respectively: “Demo”, “Trial”, “Standard”, “EDU”, “Standard Site”, “EDU Site”, “NFR”, „16-Track“ and „8-Track“. Whilst each edition equips the User with the same software, the editions vary as regards both to the scope of functions activated and the rights of use granted under this EULA.
1.2. This EULA also applies for bug fix updates, provided they are made available to the User by Bitwig GmbH. Bitwig GmbH is under no obligation however to make any bug fix updates available to the User.
1.3. This EULA also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions in all editions except the Demo Edition. Without purchasing a license for a paid version of Bitwig Studio, the Demo and Trial Edition’s scope of functions cannot be extended by means of upgrades. The scope of functions of the other editions can be extended by means of upgrades. Upgrades are provided under a separate contractual agreement: they are not covered by the contractual agreement under which the User receives the Final Version. This still applies even if the upgrade is a new version of the Final Version (e.g. V 2.0).
1.4. This EULA also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons. Sound-Packs and Add-Ons provide additional audio content and/or features to be used with the Final Version.
(EOQ)
Nota bene: Bitwig has described Spectral Suite as an "add-on;" this is not an "interpretation" of the packages forced by an outside agency with no connection to the company. Two quotes, the first from the ad page for Spectral Suite, the second from the official explanation of the change in business model on the Bitwig site:
(With emphasis appropriate to the point being made for each of these)
(BOQ)
Spectral Suite is the very first add-on for Bitwig Studio, and it's available now with an introductory price of 79 USD/EUR.
(EOQ)
(BOQ)
Why add-ons on top of the 12-month upgrade plan?
Core features of Bitwig Studio will continuously be developed as part of the 12-month upgrade plan. Highly specialized features, like devices or additional content such as presets and sound libraries, will occasionally be developed as add-ons. This way, we can keep the upgrade plan affordable while giving you the choice to purchase specific add-on features that enhance your workflow.
Will I still get feature updates as part of my 12-month upgrade plan?
Yes, you will. Since releasing Bitwig Studio 4.0 in July 2021, we have released 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 Updates, all with significant feature additions. And more is on the way! Sign up to our newsletter here to be among the first to find out what's next.
(EOQ)
While perhaps some of the responses have been strong, it is the type of reaction one is likely to see when one knows they are being swindled (for whatever reason or motivation.)
Using Bitwig's own wording, it is clear that they have broken their contract with us, their userbase. There is no debate about this, even from Bitwig's perspective if they are willing to be honest about it.
Last edited by dlandis on Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Madness, as you know, is like gravity: all it takes is a little push.”
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- KVRist
- 53 posts since 20 Aug, 2018
Nice vid.
The thing is that what they will lose is upfront cash. I and many others were happy to pay the upgrade plan because I thought their development was exemplary and trusted them to deliver.
That trust has gone and with it there's many now who will not upgrade till 'after the event' so to speak.
I doubt that is going to be offset by sales of Spectral Suite and the longer they refuse to communicate the worse that is likely to be. How they cannot see how huge the resentment is takes some believing.
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- KVRian
- 758 posts since 29 Jun, 2009
This is where they are cornered.dlandis wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:26 am Forgive me, but I'm not sure if anyone has posted the EULA itself in this thread, and yet, it is exactly that about which there is disagreement. Here are the applicable passages from Bitwig's EULA which came with Bitwig Studio 4.3.8. There is no question, actually, that they are, in fact, breaking their own contract with their users prior to 4.3.9. Anyone suggesting otherwise is just not reading the contract or is being purposefully ignorant. Note especially point 1.4 below:
(BOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)
II. Bitwig Studio Final Version (“Final Version”)
1. Scope
1.1. This EULA applies to the following editions of the Final Version that are available, in the latest release respectively: “Demo”, “Trial”, “Standard”, “EDU”, “Standard Site”, “EDU Site”, “NFR”, „16-Track“ and „8-Track“. Whilst each edition equips the User with the same software, the editions vary as regards both to the scope of functions activated and the rights of use granted under this EULA.
1.2. This EULA also applies for bug fix updates, provided they are made available to the User by Bitwig GmbH. Bitwig GmbH is under no obligation however to make any bug fix updates available to the User.
1.3. This EULA also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions in all editions except the Demo Edition. Without purchasing a license for a paid version of Bitwig Studio, the Demo and Trial Edition’s scope of functions cannot be extended by means of upgrades. The scope of functions of the other editions can be extended by means of upgrades. Upgrades are provided under a separate contractual agreement: they are not covered by the contractual agreement under which the User receives the Final Version. This still applies even if the upgrade is a new version of the Final Version (e.g. V 2.0).
1.4. This EULA also applies for separate Sound-Packs and Add-Ons. Sound-Packs and Add-Ons provide additional audio content and/or features to be used with the Final Version.
(EOQ)
Nota bene: Bitwig has described Spectral Suite as an "add-on;" this is not an "interpretation" of the packages forced by an outside agency with no connection to the company. From the official explanation on the Bitwig site:
(BOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)
Why add-ons on top of the 12-month upgrade plan?
Core features of Bitwig Studio will continuously be developed as part of the 12-month upgrade plan. Highly specialized features, like devices or additional content such as presets and sound libraries, will occasionally be developed as add-ons. This way, we can keep the upgrade plan affordable while giving you the choice to purchase specific add-on features that enhance your workflow.
Will I still get feature updates as part of my 12-month upgrade plan?
Yes, you will. Since releasing Bitwig Studio 4.0 in July 2021, we have released 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 Updates, all with significant feature additions. And more is on the way! Sign up to our newsletter here to be among the first to find out what's next.
(EOQ)
While perhaps some of the responses have been strong, it is the type of reaction one is likely to see when one knows they have been swindled (for whatever reason or motivation.)
Using Bitwig's own wording, it is clear that they have broken their contract with us, their userbase. There is no debate about this, even from Bitwig's perspective if they are willing to be honest about it.
I'm not angry or disappointed, but actually grateful of the warning shot.
I will graciously step aside and renew the maintenance fees "accordingly".
Reason - Reaktor
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- KVRist
- 84 posts since 29 Oct, 2004
I doubt they will care what we think. We will see.
My bet: Within 6 months everybody will be fine with it and will be buying updates and addons then going into the barn for a sheering before going back out to pasture to continue grazing. BAAAAH. BAAAH
My bet: Within 6 months everybody will be fine with it and will be buying updates and addons then going into the barn for a sheering before going back out to pasture to continue grazing. BAAAAH. BAAAH
Last edited by airbrush on Sat Oct 08, 2022 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 758 posts since 29 Jun, 2009
At this point it's important what "we" think and what "we" do about it.
Reason - Reaktor
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- KVRer
- 20 posts since 18 Jan, 2022
They are running out of time to prove otherwise, which is why I'm concerned about their future business viability. I like Bitwig and I'd hate to see them go backwards or completely fold because of this misstep.
- KVRian
- 973 posts since 24 Oct, 2006
I agree. I'm not going to jump ship (at least, not yet). I'm hoping that they just apologize, and do right according to their agreement with us. I'm not sure exactly what the warning shot is, per se, however. I certainly do not wish them ill as a company, but a blatant attempt to wipe away a contract cannot stand. And this does seem to be just that.Biscotto wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:36 amThis is where they are cornered.dlandis wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:26 am Using Bitwig's own wording, it is clear that they have broken their contract with us, their userbase. There is no debate about this, even from Bitwig's perspective if they are willing to be honest about it.
I'm not angry or disappointed, but actually grateful of the warning shot.
I will graciously step aside and renew the maintenance fees "accordingly".
“Madness, as you know, is like gravity: all it takes is a little push.”
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- KVRAF
- 4739 posts since 25 Mar, 2016 from Seattle
I don’t trust them not to move the goal posts anytime they see fit. What a dick move by Bitwig!
I genuinely like the DAW, but not the snide way they’re rewriting their policy's and lying to customers.
I genuinely like the DAW, but not the snide way they’re rewriting their policy's and lying to customers.
- KVRian
- 973 posts since 24 Oct, 2006
Note also that Bitwig is trying to separate "add-ons" from the "core" application in an attempt to justify their charging extra for add-ons:
(EOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)
Why add-ons on top of the 12-month upgrade plan?
Core features of Bitwig Studio will continuously be developed as part of the 12-month upgrade plan. Highly specialized features, like devices or additional content such as presets and sound libraries, will occasionally be developed as add-ons. This way, we can keep the upgrade plan affordable while giving you the choice to purchase specific add-on features that enhance your workflow.
(EOQ)
And yet, it is fairly asked, isn't a company's attempt to "enhance your workflow" a procedure so basic to a DAW that it has to be considered a necessary part of the core application regardless of how the improvement is accomplished? Isn't "workflow," in a real sense, the essence of any DAW? And yet, Bitwig, from this explanation, apparently wants us to believe that "workflow" can be somehow distinguished from the core DAW itself.
This point isn't so much about the company's lack of fealty to its EULA. It does highlight, however, the parameters in reasoning that might be used by the company in the future to justify what it defines as an "add-on."
(EOQ, with emphasis appropriate to the point being made)
Why add-ons on top of the 12-month upgrade plan?
Core features of Bitwig Studio will continuously be developed as part of the 12-month upgrade plan. Highly specialized features, like devices or additional content such as presets and sound libraries, will occasionally be developed as add-ons. This way, we can keep the upgrade plan affordable while giving you the choice to purchase specific add-on features that enhance your workflow.
(EOQ)
And yet, it is fairly asked, isn't a company's attempt to "enhance your workflow" a procedure so basic to a DAW that it has to be considered a necessary part of the core application regardless of how the improvement is accomplished? Isn't "workflow," in a real sense, the essence of any DAW? And yet, Bitwig, from this explanation, apparently wants us to believe that "workflow" can be somehow distinguished from the core DAW itself.
This point isn't so much about the company's lack of fealty to its EULA. It does highlight, however, the parameters in reasoning that might be used by the company in the future to justify what it defines as an "add-on."
“Madness, as you know, is like gravity: all it takes is a little push.”
