[Fixed in 4.4] Weird bug: latest "Spectral Suite" update not included in upgrade plan

[apoclypse]

Disgruntled Bitwig users would rather see the company crash and burn into oblivion if the number of “I refuse to upgrade” assertions made in the past few days.

And the suite is really good. Shame.

Users are supposed to vote with their wallet. Bitwig isn't entitled to get customers money without any benefit to the user. So if it means that Bitwig crashes and burns they did that to themselves. They are too small to be pissing off their user base. They are a niche product within a niche. Any significant drop in revenue could be catastrophic to a small company that relies on a constant stream of income. So their choice to rock that boat in a negative way was pretty dumb imo. Customer loyalty is really fickle and customers won't hesitate to drop something if it no longer benefits to them even if the alternatives aren't as nice to use. This has been proven time and time again.

[machinesworking]

I can understand that definitely. It just seems these days that the perpetual license is becoming
the least efficient overall for both devs and users. What good is having a permanent lic if you
can't use it effectively after a relatively short time. In particular with companies who are not
going to give you free or cheap upgrades.

In the long run, subscriptions are always more expensive, they're for people who can't do simple math. Sorry if that sounds harsh but I've never seen a monthly or yearly subscription that was anywhere near as cheap as an upgrade.

Plus what are you using that can't be used? Even the biggest OS change Apple Silicon has Rosetta compatibly that makes me able to use 99% of the software that isn't ported. No one said you magically stop buying upgrades when that's the plan, and most companies port quickly, even off upgrade cycle.

It might be unpleasant, but all things considered,
the monthly sub can be the most efficient for both devs and users. It also has the side effect
of long term stability for the product itself.

Absolutely disagree, in fact right away, anyone can 'freeze' a computer, stick it to a certain OS and configuration with an upgrade cycle DAW, but if it's a subscription you're SOL. You're conflating stability with subscription models, which IMO isn't really how it works. That's definitely how they sold subscriptions though, which is sketchy.

[machinesworking]

Disgruntled Bitwig users would rather see the company crash and burn into oblivion if the number of “I refuse to upgrade” assertions made in the past few days.

And the suite is really good. Shame.

Users are supposed to vote with their wallet. Bitwig isn't entitled to get customers money without any benefit to the user. So if it means that Bitwig crashes and burns they did that to themselves. They are too small to be pissing off their user base. They are a niche product within a niche. Any significant drop in revenue could be catastrophic to a small company that relies on a constant stream of income. So their choice to rock that boat in a negative way was pretty dumb imo. Customer loyalty is really fickle and customers won't hesitate to drop something if it no longer benefits to them even if the alternatives aren't as nice to use. This has been proven time and time again.

All of what you said is why I think someones pointing out their lack of profits last year as the source is accurate. They basically have some cash flow issues and instead of engaging a loyal and rabid fan base, they alienated them by not being upfront. I would be willing to bet if they flatly stated that they were getting hammered with expenses and announced the spectral plug ins as a sort of stop gap, or asked those of us who did not yet buy the update plan to do so, we would all be rallying to their defense and shouting from the rooftops for others to buy the DAW.

I don't know about the rest of you, but the fact they're tiny and probably not as solvent as Ableton, Apple or Avid, isn't something that makes me afraid to use their software, I know they're tiny and could rupture in the next 5 years. What I liked was the obvious zeal they had to make something slightly different.

[UncleAge]

Just for no real concrete reason really I sent the EULA off to two different lawyers who are friends of mine to get there thoughts (most believe the EULA is a legally binding document). While neither would say that it would be a slam-dunk case to pursue they both agreed that section 1.3 of the EULA and precedence would be problematic for the law firm representing BW to argue in court. As of version 4.3.8 section 1.3 state:

1.3. This EULA also applies for upgrades. Upgrades include newer versions of the Final Version as well as add-ons which extend the Final Version’s functions in all editions except the Demo Edition. Without purchasing a license for a paid version of Bitwig Studio, the Demo and Trial Edition’s scope of functions cannot be extended by means of upgrades. The scope of functions of the other editions can be extended by means of upgrades. Upgrades are provided under a separate contractual agreement: they are not covered by the contractual agreement under which the User receives the Final Version. This still applies even if the upgrade is a new version of the Final Version (e.g. V 2.0).

They both stated that it appeared as though the second sentence laid out what the company considered part of an "upgrade". They both thought the company would have to argue that the add-ons did not extend the functionality of BWS. Neither lawyer would go beyond that though without much more info. fwiw - one is a b2b contract lawyer and the other a patent lawyer. Both have been practicing law for about 25 years more or less.

Even though it means nothing outside a court of law I found their take interesting.

[pekbro]

RE: monthly subs: It promotes stability simply because the company has a regular income. E.g. they don't have to worry about having the money for continuous development. It's pretty simple really, just requires a viewpoint that is not exclusive to your own.

[machinesworking]

RE: monthly subs: It promotes stability simply because the company has a regular income. E.g. they don't have to worry about having the money for continuous development. It's pretty simple really, just requires a viewpoint that is not exclusive to your own.

Subscriptions of course promote "company" stability, but, and this is a big one, only if there is no other alternative, if you've invested yourself completely in the software. So Adobe, Avid, Microsoft and Waves (partial subscription model with WUP), have successfull subscription models, because they're 20+ year old companies with an embedded user base.

Subscriptions with companies like Slate, Pluginallience, East West, and Prosonus Studio One etc. have to also allow for permanent copies of their software as well, they aren't subscription only because flatly they would fail miserably if they were. They do not have products without direct comparable competitors, and they do not have the embedded user base to force the model on their customers.

We're essentially watching Bitwig hemorrhage (IMO) because they tried a third way, that gives none of the security that subscription models give, and none of the burst of sales that upgrades do.

[pekbro]

I think eventually they will wind up going that route like it or not. Hopefully they will
maintain an annual option for those who prefer that. There's no reason not to, let folks
save a few bucks for paying all at once. I think plenty of folks still wouldn't bother or
would find a small monthly fee attractive.

[apoclypse]

I think eventually they will wind up going that route like it or not. Hopefully they will
maintain an annual option for those who prefer that. There's no reason not to, let folks
save a few bucks for paying all at once. I think plenty of folks still wouldn't bother or
would find a small monthly fee attractive.

They probably don't want to do that because users in general are pretty averse to sub models especially in the music space where competitors are either free or have perpetual license. We've already seen how badly it's gone for Reason Studios and the general negative perception some folks have had with their Reason+ model. As nice a DAW as Bitwig is there has to be some value there for users to want to move to paying a monthly sub for the software. Out of the box just on content alone Bitwig just can't compare to the likes of Ableton, Cubase, or Logic.

Like I said the easiest way to make revenue without affecting the core application is selling presets and sound packs which imo is pretty acceptable as most companies do it and they make pretty good revenue doing that. Bitwig's current included content is not great and there should be a lot more Grid presets that show how cool it is for those who are not really into synth design but would still like to mess around with it. They should have more presets for their other instruments, and more acoustic drums a hyper sampled Grand Piano. These are easy pickings imo when it comes to making revenue outside of the core DAW and they don't have to break EULA or customer faith to do it.

[pekbro]

I think eventually they will wind up going that route like it or not. Hopefully they will
maintain an annual option for those who prefer that. There's no reason not to, let folks
save a few bucks for paying all at once. I think plenty of folks still wouldn't bother or
would find a small monthly fee attractive.

They probably don't want to do that because users in general are pretty averse to sub models especially in the music space where competitors are either free or have perpetual license. We've already seen how badly it's gone for Reason Studios and the general negative perception some folks have had with their Reason+ model. As nice a DAW as Bitwig is there has to be some value there for users to want to move to paying a monthly sub for the software. Out of the box just on content alone Bitwig just can't compare to the likes of Ableton, Cubase, or Logic.

Like I said the easiest way to make revenue without affecting the core application is selling presets and sound packs which imo is pretty acceptable as most companies do it and they make pretty good revenue doing that. Bitwig's current included content is not great and there should be a lot more Grid presets that show how cool it is for those who are not really into synth design but would still like to mess around with it. They should have more presets for their other instruments, and more acoustic drums a hyper sampled Grand Piano. These are easy pickings imo when it comes to making revenue outside of the core DAW and they don't have to break EULA or customer faith to do it.

Maybe, but sooner or later we will be dead and gone and the kids won't even know wtf a perpetual license is probably. Or remember all this debacle.

[apoclypse]

I think eventually they will wind up going that route like it or not. Hopefully they will
maintain an annual option for those who prefer that. There's no reason not to, let folks
save a few bucks for paying all at once. I think plenty of folks still wouldn't bother or
would find a small monthly fee attractive.

They probably don't want to do that because users in general are pretty averse to sub models especially in the music space where competitors are either free or have perpetual license. We've already seen how badly it's gone for Reason Studios and the general negative perception some folks have had with their Reason+ model. As nice a DAW as Bitwig is there has to be some value there for users to want to move to paying a monthly sub for the software. Out of the box just on content alone Bitwig just can't compare to the likes of Ableton, Cubase, or Logic.

Like I said the easiest way to make revenue without affecting the core application is selling presets and sound packs which imo is pretty acceptable as most companies do it and they make pretty good revenue doing that. Bitwig's current included content is not great and there should be a lot more Grid presets that show how cool it is for those who are not really into synth design but would still like to mess around with it. They should have more presets for their other instruments, and more acoustic drums a hyper sampled Grand Piano. These are easy pickings imo when it comes to making revenue outside of the core DAW and they don't have to break EULA or customer faith to do it.

Maybe, but sooner or later we will be dead and gone and the kids won't even know wtf a perpetual license is probably. Or remember all this debacle.

True the next generation won't remember what owning something means anymore. Rent seeking is the future. There was this sci-fi show I used to watch where everyone was born with debt and you spent the rest of your life paying down that debt, anything you bought was added to your credit (so you basically never pay down you debt and you don't own anything as everything is owned by corporations.

[machinesworking]

I think eventually they will wind up going that route like it or not. Hopefully they will
maintain an annual option for those who prefer that. There's no reason not to, let folks
save a few bucks for paying all at once. I think plenty of folks still wouldn't bother or
would find a small monthly fee attractive.

Yeah, they have that with the rent to buy option. I don't know how effective having a permanent license along with a subscription is, but it doesn't seem like it hurt Studio Ones reputation to have both? that's always an option. The update plan IMO is the odd man out that we're seeing fail though. Like I already mentioned you pretty much need embedded customers to have only a subscription in the music software market. Every company that is subscription only has their customers by the short hairs.

[Sound Author]

They are a niche product within a niche.

THIS. I am SO tired of fanboys and influencers pushing the phrase "core DAW features", which is just a bull***t term for basic functionality. That was never a thing that drew people to Bitwig. I don't know anyone who bought Bitwig so they could use it for basic things you can do in literally any other DAW. The entire point of Bitwig is that it's a left-field sound design playground that allows you to create music in non-traditional ways.

I don't want boring Ableton-ish updates that only contain bugfixes and tedious improvements to things that practically no one has even noticed. Shifting the focus on "core features" means pushing out coma-inducing updates with underwhelming changelogs that bring next to nothing new to the table. I'm not paying $170 a year for that. The deal was to get access to POWERFUL new features and devices, not a few nip-tucks to the piano roll and a slightly improved arrangement view.

Bitwig is and always was a weird, experimental and yes NICHE programming environment for sound designers and generative musicians who were NEVER interested in things like "core features". Our heads were outside the box from the very outset. If you bought Bitwig just to draw some notes in the piano roll and plop audio clips into the arrangement view, I'm sorry that you wasted your money because you could've just paid $60 for Reaper.

[pekbro]

I think eventually they will wind up going that route like it or not. Hopefully they will
maintain an annual option for those who prefer that. There's no reason not to, let folks
save a few bucks for paying all at once. I think plenty of folks still wouldn't bother or
would find a small monthly fee attractive.

They probably don't want to do that because users in general are pretty averse to sub models especially in the music space where competitors are either free or have perpetual license. We've already seen how badly it's gone for Reason Studios and the general negative perception some folks have had with their Reason+ model. As nice a DAW as Bitwig is there has to be some value there for users to want to move to paying a monthly sub for the software. Out of the box just on content alone Bitwig just can't compare to the likes of Ableton, Cubase, or Logic.

Like I said the easiest way to make revenue without affecting the core application is selling presets and sound packs which imo is pretty acceptable as most companies do it and they make pretty good revenue doing that. Bitwig's current included content is not great and there should be a lot more Grid presets that show how cool it is for those who are not really into synth design but would still like to mess around with it. They should have more presets for their other instruments, and more acoustic drums a hyper sampled Grand Piano. These are easy pickings imo when it comes to making revenue outside of the core DAW and they don't have to break EULA or customer faith to do it.

Maybe, but sooner or later we will be dead and gone and the kids won't even know wtf a perpetual license is probably. Or remember all this debacle.

True the next generation won't remember what owning something means anymore. Rent seeking is the future. There was this sci-fi show I used to watch where everyone was born with debt and you spent the rest of your life paying down that debt, anything you bought was added to your credit (so you basically never pay down you debt and you don't own anything as everything is owned by corporations.

I prefer to hope for the future they imagine in Orville, where the is no money and all currency is allotted to personal achievement. Sadly, I would still be poor in such a society.

[Firewyre]

Benn Jordan and Venus Theory chatting about it now

[Sound Author]

Yeah I'm watching it now.