They did the right thing, now show support!

[j wazza]

I wasn't actually against add ons, lots of daws have add ons, if they said 1 year in advance that the yearly update plan didn't cover future add ons, that would be fine.

But lots of DAW's don't have a 12 months of updates plan like Bitwig.

This was my point, it's not the add ons themselves that's the problem, it's that people thought they were getting all new devices from the yearly update plan, and it wasn't communicated properly. If they told us a year ago that the plan didn't include add ons, that would've been fine as everyone would have known before buying

I think a daw can have yearly upgrade plans as well as add ons, if its communicated properly

Do you think that a daw should not have both a yearly plan and add ons even if its communicated before purchase of the update plan?

[jclosed]

I wasn't actually against add ons, lots of daws have add ons

But lots of DAW's don't have a 12 months of updates plan like Bitwig.

This was my point, it's not the add ons themselves that's the problem, it's that people thought they were getting all new devices from the yearly update plan, and it wasn't communicated properly. If they told us a year ago that the plan didn't include add ons, that would've been fine as everyone would have known

I think a daw can have yearly upgrade plans as well as add ons, if its communicated properly

Do you think that a daw should not have both even if its communicated?

It's not that people THOUGHT they where getting all new devices, it's that people where TOLD they where getting all the devices. And they did not get what they payed for. I don't need glasses and I have clearly seen that in black on white on their website a moment before I bought the Upgrade Plan. Don't try to spin it....

If people where told beforehand add-ons where not included, I am sure a LOT of people would not buy that expensive Upgrade Plan. One of the selling points (or even better THE selling point) of that plan was (and luckily is back again now), that everything developed in one year was included. Otherwise that €170 would be very steep price and in most cases completely uninteresting. I think in that case the sales of that Upgrade Plan would make a spectacular nose dive. Keep in mind that no other DAW has such a high "maintenance" fee (apart for maybe Protools, but I don't know much about that). So - Throw away the biggest selling point, and you loose sales. Simple as that.

Lucky enough things are back to (almost) normal now, but this will be remembered, and Bitwig is on conditional punishment now (yeah - a fair bit exaggerated but still).

[j wazza]

It's not that people THOUGHT they where getting all new devices, it's that people where TOLD they where getting all the devices. And they did not get what they payed for. I don't need glasses and I have clearly seen that in black on white on their website a moment before I bought the Upgrade Plan. Don't try to spin it....

I'm not trying to spin anything, you're making the same point as me, this is what I meant about the problem being Bitwigs communication about the update plan. People thought they'd get everything and they were told they would, they're not mutually exclusive

[_leras]

I wasn't actually against add ons, lots of daws have add ons

But lots of DAW's don't have a 12 months of updates plan like Bitwig.

but some do include point updates

[pdxindy]

I wasn't actually against add ons, lots of daws have add ons, if they said 1 year in advance that the yearly update plan didn't cover future add ons, that would be fine.

But lots of DAW's don't have a 12 months of updates plan like Bitwig.

This was my point, it's not the add ons themselves that's the problem, it's that people thought they were getting all new devices from the yearly update plan, and it wasn't communicated properly. If they told us a year ago that the plan didn't include add ons, that would've been fine as everyone would have known

I think a daw can have yearly upgrade plans as well as add ons, if its communicated properly

Do you think that a daw should not have both even if its communicated?

I don't know what a DAW should or shouldn't do. I have no experience developing and selling a DAW. I can only speak from my own interests and observations. On that basis, here are my thoughts.

The Bitwig update plan is different that other DAW's. What is suitable for others DAW's may not make sense for Bitwig.

If a user keeps their account always active, then Bitwig is on the more expensive side compared to other DAW's over say a 5 year period. I'm on my 5th annual update. I am satisfied with what Bitwig has delivered over that period. I would say they have delivered enough... but just enough. If this user thinks it is just enough, then it is inevitable that other users think it is not quite enough. IMO, the best thing they can do, is keep the current plan and pick up the pace a bit. They need more users who are saying hell yeah this is worth it. Right now there are those who say it is worth it by not updating quite so often. IMO, picking up the pace would tip the scales from just enough to plenty which would counteract the inherent uncertainty in the 12 month plan.

Regarding Add-ons... I don't think the concept generally works well in conjunction with the 12 month plan. Users buy and activate a new plan based on the expectation of receiving new features throughout the 12 months. Users do not know in advance what those features are. So it is easy to imagine that some users would prefer the features in the add-on to what was included in a regular update. IMO, it just invites frustration.

The one feature that comes to my mind as an add-on that could work well is themes. Bitwig could have an add-on that allows users to theme Bitwig. Then there is no functional difference and any user could still exchange projects with any other user. Besides that, I don't think of a feature that doesn't just seem like an arbitrary choice. If it seems like an arbitrary choice, then again it seems inevitable to lead to some user frustration. There is already enough unknown in the 12 month plan. Adding more unknown puts too much burden on the user IMO.

Again, these are just my thoughts based on an outsider perspective.

[JsinOwl]

Wanting to show support of Bitwig for doing the right thing seems cultish and creepy? That seems... a bit of a stretch.

@Teksonik - I think your problem is you're trying to apply logical arguments to something that isn't about logic. Despite the backlash, Bitwig did not have to respond the way they did. I appreciate that they made things right and explicitly said what the policy will be going forward. It gave me an emotional desire to show them some support. That's just me. If you don't have that desire, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It's like trying to debate somebody whether or not they like candy corn. (They shouldn't, it's disgusting.)

If some people feel a desire to throw a little love Bitwig's way, I don't see how it affects you or why you would even be against it. People sending money to Bitwig funds development that benefits everyone. So...yeah, you're in here advocating against something that indirectly benefits you.
 

[wentzelitis]

they did the right thing? by trying to greedily and sneakily charge for an update to loyal paying members?

they only apologized and fixed it after they saw people and influencers were leaving bitwig and that it was a net loss for income. damage control. they did not do this out of the kindness of their heart. if you apologize after you get caught stealing, you still stole.. you're just sorry you got caught and want less punishment. you can do what you want but no one is obligated to support them for this.

[billcarroll]

Wanting to show support of Bitwig for doing the right thing seems cultish and creepy? That seems... a bit of a stretch.

@Teksonik - I think your problem is you're trying to apply logical arguments to something that isn't about logic. Despite the backlash, Bitwig did not have to respond the way they did. I appreciate that they made things right and explicitly said what the policy will be going forward. It gave me an emotional desire to show them some support. That's just me. If you don't have that desire, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It's like trying to debate somebody whether or not they like candy corn. (They shouldn't, it's disgusting.)

If some people feel a desire to throw a little love Bitwig's way, I don't see how it affects you or why you would even be against it. People sending money to Bitwig funds development that benefits everyone. So...yeah, you're in here advocating against something that indirectly benefits you.
 

Everyone is entitled to react how they want. However this thread is trying to promote the idea that Bitwig deserves extra rewards for doing the right thing, finally. Some disagree. It’s on you to respect that. Everyone gets their opinion.

[JsinOwl]

Wanting to show support of Bitwig for doing the right thing seems cultish and creepy? That seems... a bit of a stretch.

@Teksonik - I think your problem is you're trying to apply logical arguments to something that isn't about logic. Despite the backlash, Bitwig did not have to respond the way they did. I appreciate that they made things right and explicitly said what the policy will be going forward. It gave me an emotional desire to show them some support. That's just me. If you don't have that desire, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. It's like trying to debate somebody whether or not they like candy corn. (They shouldn't, it's disgusting.)

If some people feel a desire to throw a little love Bitwig's way, I don't see how it affects you or why you would even be against it. People sending money to Bitwig funds development that benefits everyone. So...yeah, you're in here advocating against something that indirectly benefits you.
 

Everyone is entitled to react how they want. However this thread is trying to promote the idea that Bitwig deserves extra rewards for doing the right thing, finally. Some disagree. It’s on you to respect that. Everyone gets their opinion.

ROFL
I've gone out of my way to say your points are valid. I said in my reply to Teksonik that these are my personal feelings and it doesn't make either of us right or wrong. How am I not not respecting other people's opinions? Do explain.

[machinesworking]

I’m on my phone here so I’m not going to quote directly everybody that replied to my last post etc.

My thoughts aren’t to reward bad behavior, they aren’t my kids or dog, they’re a business. The reasons they did what they did are financial IMO. Their income for 30 people last year was 1.4 million, roughly 46k or likely 30k for 80% and the rest at 60 etc. They aren’t getting rich doing what they do. I don’t think this was an attempt at grabbing cash as much as ensuring revenue for growth.

I have 6 DAWs on my laptop here, Bitwig and DP are what I use though, and although obviously if both went out of business I would be fine, I don’t want either to. I flatly stated before they came out and reversed their bad decision that I would drop them in a second if they didn’t and I meant that. I also don’t feel any need to punish them, this wasn’t nearly as tragic for my work as NI dropping Kore, Absynth, Rig Kontrol etc. or Alchemy being bought by Apple and installed in Logic, etc. I still use NI software, because it’s embedded in a dozen sample libraries I own.

So the question is why? IMO they’re not doing badly, but not expanding either, they sell one product only. The attempt to generate more revenue was made, terribly considering how they marketed the Update Plan, but it was an attempt to get more money rolling in. Their Plan is game able, most of us do, I’ve bought once in two years because you can ride out minor tweaks after your plan runs out, and I lucked out in terms of 4.3 rolling out right at the end of my plan etc. That means that so far Bitwigs upgrade cycle has been cheaper for me than other DAWs I own like DP in the same time frame, even though DP is 100% predictable with $200 upgrades every three years almost like clockwork.

they aren’t my kids I’m not here to teach them a lesson, they make a product I like that they aren’t getting filthy rich making. They may have acted out like a kid but even then if all you do is punish bad behavior I’m sorry that’s bad parenting. You figure out or try to find out why the behavior happened in the first place.

So you either get emotional and want to punish a product/company you like for “behavior” or you look at the cause and decide whether to support them or not, because punishing a product you like when behavior has been corrected is stupid. You can argue that holding your reservation etc. on their future actions is logical etc. but IMO a bitwigs behavior is more due to the fact that the update plan is entirely unique in execution and you can game it to be cheaper than typical upgrade cycles. So extending it to waiting until all the goodies are there trashes them economically, which means less goodies, and if people complain about it at that point, I’m going to mock you relentlessly.

Also, if you’re so mad at them still, feal the need to punish them etc. why stay around? I completely don’t get that? I’m stuck with NI, but only because most freaking sample libraries are not transferable.

[Teksonik]

They may have acted out like a kid but even then if all you do is punish bad behavior I’m sorry that’s bad parenting.

You don't reward bad behavior either because that would be horrible parenting. That's exactly what you're advocating by suggesting with this thread that we throw money at them by purchasing shirts and tote bags.

So you either get emotional and want to punish a product/company you like for “behavior”

Or you get emotional and want to reward a company for their bad behavior or lack of business acumen. Throughout this whole debacle emotions ran high on both sides.

I’m going to mock you relentlessly.

Mocking anyone is not going to accomplish anything. All you're doing with this thread is reopening the wounds when they should be healing now.

We get it, you have an emotional attachment to Bitwig and that's fine but threatening to "mock" people because they aren't doing what you want is not helping...at all.

Lock this thread and move on. Let's put all this behind us and move forward....for Bitwig's sake.

[billinder33]

It will be interesting to see if Bitwig's damage control is sufficient to repair whatever damage was done.

I'm glad they decided to follow their own EULA and make everyone whole. I feel no need to applaud them for this, because it never should have come to this. If I were heavily invested in their system, I'd still use and support the product in the near term given that they reversed course on this one. But I would also be seriously considering options for Plan B if I didn't have one already.

As a Reaper user, Bitwig is MY plan B. So I hope things normalize and there are no more system shocks lurking around the bend.

[machinesworking]

Or you get emotional and want to reward a company for their bad behavior or lack of business acumen. Throughout this whole debacle emotions ran high on both sides.

I do not care at all about their behavior on any emotional attachment level at all, if they hadn’t changed, I would have quit using the product, since they did change, I have no impetus to punish them and want the product to do well. I do not see any emotional attachment in that. What I do see is a lot of users who will tank a company because of some nonsense about rewards and not rewarding etc. because their feelings were hurt by a bad business move. For instance you’re here literally arguing against showing financial support for the product because you’re still mad at the people. How does that help the product? This is why dogs pissing on carpets and the like are stupid comparisons. It’s not about whether you like or dislike the CEO or the people, it’s about a product that is being produced and how it’s funded, advocating against funding a product that made a mistake attempting to gain more funding only makes sense if you’re emotionally attached to the bad action or don’t care whether that company and product exists. It’s all ridiculously Calvinistic to me.

[elxsound]

Or you get emotional and want to reward a company for their bad behavior or lack of business acumen. Throughout this whole debacle emotions ran high on both sides.

I do not care at all about their behavior on any emotional attachment level at all, if they hadn’t changed, I would have quit using the product, since they did change, I have no impetus to punish them and want the product to do well. I do not see any emotional attachment in that. What I do see is a lot of users who will tank a company because of some nonsense about rewards and not rewarding etc. because their feelings were hurt by a bad business move. For instance you’re here literally arguing against showing financial support for the product because you’re still mad at the people. How does that help the product? This is why dogs pissing on carpets and the like are stupid comparisons. It’s not about whether you like or dislike the CEO or the people, it’s about a product that is being produced and how it’s funded, advocating against funding a product that made a mistake attempting to gain more funding only makes sense if you’re emotionally attached to the bad action or don’t care whether that company and product exists. It’s all ridiculously Calvinistic to me.

Actually all he’s said a couple times is that it’s time to move on.

He didn’t argue against showing financial support. That’s a false argument.

I wrote earlier that this thread seemed cultish and creepy (because we don’t have insider info to justify anything over another).

I also think it would be better just to move on. Nobody knows why any decision was done, so not really much left to discuss.

[Teksonik]

For instance you’re here literally arguing against showing financial support for the product because you’re still mad at the people.

You've obviously not been paying attention to what I've written in this thread. Go back and read what I've posted here.

I'm not mad at Bitwig at all.....any longer.

I'm not arguing against showing them financial support. I'm arguing against the notion that just because they reversed their decision that now we should support them by buying "shirts and tote bags".

That's like saying if I stole some woman's purse then thought it through and gave it back to her...then expected a reward for returning it.....get it now?

I may do business with BW again but like I wrote before, my update plan is active until next year so I don't need to buy another one right now.

If Bitwig needs us to buy t-shirts just to stay afloat then they're already coughing up blood as a company and the end can't be that far off. I doubt very much they are in that dire of a situation.

You realize that people are experiencing hard times as well right? My stock portfolio is down 30% just since January and inflation is brutal so I can't justify handing out money willy nilly just to keep some company afloat.

Is Bitwig going to help me out if I need it? No of course not and don't I expect them to.

I just don't feel Bitwig should be rewarded in any way shape or form for this debacle. I also don't think they should be punished at this point but certainly not rewarded.

I simply can't make it any clearer than that......