Bitwig VS Ableton

[SLiC]

...The first one to add simple integrated 'audio editing like midi' will be the winner for me, Reason actually does this very nicely.

I think ARA2 support will be the next logical step after comping ... perhaps they will come even up with their house made solution...
But I think something will happen there ... at least on Abletons side...

In Bitwig I am not so sure... I guess there will be first about 20 new plugins and Grid modules before...

I like that Cubase has ARA and a simpler more integrated monophonic solution. ARA with Melodyne is great (I use it in S1) but it is often massive overkill for just correcting a few monophonic notes and if its properly integrated you could use 'modulators' on audio like you can on midi...could be next level

[SLiC]

This is an interesting twist for anyone in the pro-MAX (max4live) camp, cycling74 have just launched a new add on for MAX that lets you generate VSTs or even export to run on Rasbury Pi (to make your own hardware pedals, synths etc). Very cool- another good reason to persevere and learn MAX!

Interestingly it also seems to make you make MAX devices that act like native Live devices, load fast like native Live instruments etc...

viewtopic.php?t=588799

Edit- it just occurred to me that this also means you will be able to use/export max devices for use in Bitwig as a VST3!

[EnGee]

Re: Java in Bitwig. Yes, there is a very stripped down JVM hiding in there, at about 50Mb vs. the standard one which is usually 300Mb+. If it's handling the GUI, it's definitely not Swing! A rather strange choice, somewhat over-complicated when there are very performant cross-platform libraries available.

Uh, it's been a while since this topic came up. So let me clarify again:
Bitwig uses Java as the 'glue code' between its' components and gives them access to many platform independent libraries (no there are not that many libraries in C) like internet protocols, reading/writing file formats, etc. The audio engine and drawing code of the UI is coded in C.
And BTW Java is nowadays as fast as C++ and in some aspects event faster while being much easier to debug.

Does 'glue code' means that Java is used as a front end with C libraries for calculations and algorithms? or is it entirely coded in C using few libraries of Java for communication?

[scott_free]

Live Suite has MaxforLive...it would be great to see something like CDPforBitwig or PureDataforBitwig.

[FakeNatty]

Live Suite has MaxforLive...it would be great to see something like CDPforBitwig or PureDataforBitwig.

PlugData

[moss]

Re: Java in Bitwig. Yes, there is a very stripped down JVM hiding in there, at about 50Mb vs. the standard one which is usually 300Mb+. If it's handling the GUI, it's definitely not Swing! A rather strange choice, somewhat over-complicated when there are very performant cross-platform libraries available.

Uh, it's been a while since this topic came up. So let me clarify again:
Bitwig uses Java as the 'glue code' between its' components and gives them access to many platform independent libraries (no there are not that many libraries in C) like internet protocols, reading/writing file formats, etc. The audio engine and drawing code of the UI is coded in C.
And BTW Java is nowadays as fast as C++ and in some aspects event faster while being much easier to debug.

Does 'glue code' means that Java is used as a front end with C libraries for calculations and algorithms? or is it entirely coded in C using few libraries of Java for communication?

I don't know all the details. But the main thing is that the audio engine (incl. MIDI I/O) is a separate process coded in C (or C++ not sure). Not sure if the main app is Java and integrates the C++ code or the other way round but this main program takes the user input and updates the data in the audio engine. The main idea of this architecture is that these main components are running independent from each other which allows the realtime live aspect. Also the grid has an interesting approach since all the changes are compiled to native code in realtime.

[Trancit]

Another plus for Ableton:

Automation for VST3 plugins in Live shows you and let you uses real values including numeric entering of values while Bitwig still shows just percentage...

If they have the ability to work with real values of their own plugins and do support VST3 from the very start it´s for me not really understandable why it is still not possible to enter real values for 3rd party plugins...
This is so essential when working with parameters which have to land on exact values...

Another workflow point which goes by far to Ableton...

[EnGee]

Re: Java in Bitwig. Yes, there is a very stripped down JVM hiding in there, at about 50Mb vs. the standard one which is usually 300Mb+. If it's handling the GUI, it's definitely not Swing! A rather strange choice, somewhat over-complicated when there are very performant cross-platform libraries available.

Uh, it's been a while since this topic came up. So let me clarify again:
Bitwig uses Java as the 'glue code' between its' components and gives them access to many platform independent libraries (no there are not that many libraries in C) like internet protocols, reading/writing file formats, etc. The audio engine and drawing code of the UI is coded in C.
And BTW Java is nowadays as fast as C++ and in some aspects event faster while being much easier to debug.

Does 'glue code' means that Java is used as a front end with C libraries for calculations and algorithms? or is it entirely coded in C using few libraries of Java for communication?

I don't know all the details. But the main thing is that the audio engine (incl. MIDI I/O) is a separate process coded in C (or C++ not sure). Not sure if the main app is Java and integrates the C++ code or the other way round but this main program takes the user input and updates the data in the audio engine. The main idea of this architecture is that these main components are running independent from each other which allows the realtime live aspect. Also the grid has an interesting approach since all the changes are compiled to native code in realtime.

I undrstand.
Thanks for your explanation and efforts

[zerocrossing]

is there a way to groove quantize in bitwig?

Only basic swing... no sort of groove extract and apply to track/clip

This is a major hole in Bitwig’s feature set, IMO. I’m working on a track which has parts that are pretty straight and parts with lots of swing, even every other bar, and it was pretty tedious to do in Bitwig. I did the whole thing live. It would have been really nice to have something like Live’s groove pool to just drag over to a MIDI clip.

[FakeNatty]

This is an interesting twist for anyone in the pro-MAX (max4live) camp, cycling74 have just launched a new add on for MAX that lets you generate VSTs or even export to run on Rasbury Pi (to make your own hardware pedals, synths etc). Very cool- another good reason to persevere and learn MAX!

Interestingly it also seems to make you make MAX devices that act like native Live devices, load fast like native Live instruments etc...

viewtopic.php?t=588799

Edit- it just occurred to me that this also means you will be able to use/export max devices for use in Bitwig as a VST3!

wait, so max for live cannot make vsts? Only the Max standalone version can do that now?

[moss]

This is an interesting twist for anyone in the pro-MAX (max4live) camp, cycling74 have just launched a new add on for MAX that lets you generate VSTs or even export to run on Rasbury Pi (to make your own hardware pedals, synths etc). Very cool- another good reason to persevere and learn MAX!

Interestingly it also seems to make you make MAX devices that act like native Live devices, load fast like native Live instruments etc...

viewtopic.php?t=588799

Edit- it just occurred to me that this also means you will be able to use/export max devices for use in Bitwig as a VST3!

wait, so max for live cannot make vsts? Only the Max standalone version can do that now?

Correct (and it is only a subset of max). And until you do not want to go full GPL, you still need the VST3 license and a JUCE license (if I understood that correctly).

[FakeNatty]

Correct (and it is only a subset of max). And until you do not want to go full GPL, you still need the VST3 license and a JUCE license (if I understood that correctly).

thanks for the answer. I thought Max for Live now supports VST export, but I was too optimistic.

[revvy]

Ableton Live would definitely beat Bitwig in a fight, that’s the main thing

[pdxindy]

is there a way to groove quantize in bitwig?

Only basic swing... no sort of groove extract and apply to track/clip

This is a major hole in Bitwig’s feature set, IMO. I’m working on a track which has parts that are pretty straight and parts with lots of swing, even every other bar, and it was pretty tedious to do in Bitwig. I did the whole thing live. It would have been really nice to have something like Live’s groove pool to just drag over to a MIDI clip.

I would like groove tools added to Bitwig for sure... that said, it isn't always so easy to extract and use grooves and have them come out well. Even when I had Live (and now in Logic), sometimes I still just do it by live playing until I get it right.

[apoclypse]

is there a way to groove quantize in bitwig?

Only basic swing... no sort of groove extract and apply to track/clip

This is a major hole in Bitwig’s feature set, IMO. I’m working on a track which has parts that are pretty straight and parts with lots of swing, even every other bar, and it was pretty tedious to do in Bitwig. I did the whole thing live. It would have been really nice to have something like Live’s groove pool to just drag over to a MIDI clip.

I would like groove tools added to Bitwig for sure... that said, it isn't always so easy to extract and use grooves and have them come out well. Even when I had Live (and now in Logic), sometimes I still just do it by live playing until I get it right.

It's not hard either. Like all things it takes moderation and just a little bit of skill to get good groove extractions. Either way at least for me I primarily use it for gelling different tracks together if I do play my stuff without quantization on. That way I don't have to do it for every track if I don't feel like it.

Personally my favorite quantization workflow is to have a swing parameter that I can manipulate and see the changes happen in realtime in the Piano Roll. Neither Live nor Bitwig work that way. If Bitwig had a per note swing knob in the inspector area I'd be okay with that (sometimes I just want to swing the hi hats for example). Both Logic and S1 have this.