Urs Heckman Minimoog Emulation Nitpicks

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I've seen a few threads recently where Urs has chimed in to point out that he wasn't happy with any Minimoog emulations on the market for not doing certain things actual Minimoogs do. This leaves me cautiously optimistic that after Z3 is done and other open projects wrap up that either a Diva 2 update will go balls to the wall on the Minimoog or maybe U-he will do a Repro-esque hyper detailed emulation of a Minimoog (at which point, everyone will collectively groan and ask "do we REALLY need another Minimoog").

But that's just the context for my question: I'm really just curious, Urs, what are some of these things to listen for on a Minimoog emulation? Where are other models falling short and what what I need to do to hear them? You don't have to name names, but I'm genuinely curious.

I've got almost all the Minimoog emulations out there and a Behringer Poly-D (my thoughts on that: envelopes feel a bit slow and gain staging is too low, you really need to up the OSC level in the mixer, keyboard/wheel quality is meh, otherwise ok) so I'm a bit curious about what to listen for/how to test.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I should also say, I'm good if the answer is just, "I'd rather not say until I can release a version that fixes these issues". But thought it might be a fun topic of conversation.

[pierb]

Nobody has modeled the feedback properly.

See this Starsky Carr video:

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Nobody has modeled the feedback properly.

See this Starsky Carr video:

I also recall reading ages ago, I think when The Legend came out (sure...that's "ages ago"), that the Minimoog will also "stack" the envelopes. What I think that means is that if you quickly retrigger the envelopes you'll get a little more filter/amp level. But I'm not sure if my understand of that is totally accurate. Seems like if I take The Legend and quickly play a note in repetition, yeah, I'll get a bit more level on some of the later hits than the initial. Is it that? Dunno...but that's why I'm asking these questions. I'm always interested in learning.

[waltercruz]

Nobody has modeled the feedback properly.

See this Starsky Carr video:

I also recall reading ages ago, I think when The Legend came out (sure...that's "ages ago"), that the Minimoog will also "stack" the envelopes. What I think that means is that if you quickly retrigger the envelopes you'll get a little more filter/amp level. But I'm not sure if my understand of that is totally accurate. Seems like if I take The Legend and quickly play a note in repetition, yeah, I'll get a bit more level on some of the later hits than the initial. Is it that? Dunno...but that's why I'm asking these questions. I'm always interested in learning.

I'm sure that Urs will eventually appear here to answer your questions, just wanna point that there's some info about some of the minimoog quirks on The Legend and Monark manuals, and on the topic about The Legend itself, there's a lot of nice material too (and some comments from Urs).

Copying from The Legend kvr topic:

Urs: "A good idea of what's happening can be found in the user manual for the IMHO best analogue recreation of the very circuit, found here:"

https://ajhsynth.com/pdf/MiniMod%20Dual ... Manual.pdf

AJH wrote:
There are two factors that are absolutely essential when attempting to faithfully recreate the iconic Model D envelope behaviour and function, firstly the very fast exponential slope , which when used in conjunction with the (near) linear slope of the original VCA is largely responsible for the famous Model D “punch”. Secondly, the re-trigger behaviour is quite unique; multiple retriggering progressively increases the output level so that either the volume increases incre- mentally or the filter opens incrementally with each extra key press.

[Urs]

I'm a nutter for AJH modules. We have each single one of them twice if not not thrice.

So the issue isn't really the feedback distortion. That one is probably completely different between two Minimoogs, it would be hard to say which one is right or wrong. You can do anything and say "well, this is how the Mini sounded that we modeled it on".

There isn't that much stuff going on in a Minimoog. But after Diva, Monark and Legend, instead of making it more accurate, they seem to all make it worse and more lifeless. Envelope stacking is one thing, but its actual shape is another. You'd think people have a look at Diva or Monark and make it any better. Same with Glide, OscFM, Filter sound.

The more recent "emulations" seem like they cater for "ideal" sound rather than authenticity. Yet they are often marketed as "meticulously modelled" when they behave less like the original circuits than 10 year old attempts. They do however sound gorgeous, I give you that. Somehow hifi.

Anyhow. Apparently people don't look at things, or they have no sense for detail. Or they just do what the marketing department says.

IDK.

[Urs]

(OMG some don't even get the waveforms right... I won't tell)

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

(OMG some don't even get the waveforms right... I won't tell)

Ah, so you're not even necessarily even talking about something like some obscure filter FM behavior or envelope stacking, in some cases you're talking about the basics like, 'hey, the Minimoog triangle isn't supposed to be a perfect triangle'. Yeah, I can see how that would be annoying as folks "ooh and ahh" the latest incarnation.

[nirm123]

"But after Diva, Monark and Legend" - I guess the only notable one afterwards was Softube Model 72?

[zvenx]

Uad, cherry audio and there may be others also.

By the time i had played model 72 it has been years since I last played a real minimoog. So i can't remember all the idiosyncrasies, but for sure to me model 72 sounds the best and like the minimoog can easily fit into any mix almost seemlessly.
None of the others do that as well to me.

rsp

[Urs]

"But after Diva, Monark and Legend" - I guess the only notable one afterwards was Softube Model 72?

Nah, there were more like half a dozen notable ones.

[Urs]

Btw. I think I'm not criticising the companies for what they're doing - it's solely up to them to decide what they put in a product. I just perceive the trend towards "when we do an emulation then let's fix the bugs in the hardware" as a less desirable way to go than to say "let's embrace those quirks".

If anything, I'd criticise their marketing departments which boast about things that are just not true. Again, if "every detail and nuance" was modelled accurately, these algorithms would need to exhibit different behaviour.

I think today I can admit to the details we gotten wrong in Diva, and most of them were "OMG, this 35 years old hardware is doing this, but that must be a faulty part... let's tone this down a notch, just in case". However, after the three early emus I mentioned, new hardware Minimoogs came out, and with them the certainty that what we thought were bugs in the hardware are actually things the hardware is supposed to do.

Hence, while in 2010 people had to interpret observations to get the job done, in 2020 this knowledge is readily available, partly thanks to the work that was done earlier. I find it weird that this isn't acknowledged and built upon in recent attempts, and thus things are IMHO moving backwards.

I would love to put my findings into a new emulation of my own, but I can not stall the projects I'm already working on.

[nirm123]

So you should try Softube Model 72 then, it's a marvelous emulation and for me (many others have expressed the same opinion), as someone who started by playing classical piano as a kid, the first time I've played a software instrument which really felt as an organic musical instrument, with all of the quirks, and the heart & soul.

[Urs]

I'm not posting my findings about particular specimen here, but I can assure you that I have tried all of them, and everyone has disappointed me in respect of the things I was looking for.

[Lbdunequest]

i personaly never played with Moog, but i played with Moog One. And i extensivly use The Legend and Diva (I also have Monark). When first time i played Moog One my initial thought was "wow this sounds alot like The Legend".