FL Studio 21 officially released

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Serhii Kot
KVRist
209 posts since 19 May, 2017 from Ukraine, Odesa

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:15 am

I sometimes create some music in FLS just for fun. FL studio drains MacBook battery like crazy. I have 8-12 hours of Logic(or S1), or 3-6 with FLS.

skarvika
KVRer
17 posts since 22 Nov, 2022

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:13 am

Honestly, the change I'm appreciating the most is the search function added to the browser. Saves me time on all that right clicking and scrolling through plugin lists. I do like the ability to change the color schemes, it's a lot more pleasing to the eye now. Being able to paste midi/clips where the playhead is is a much welcome addition as well. I also noticed the piano roll no longer randomly resizes itself to be miles long vertically... :)
That being said, I'd much rather the VFX Sequencer have been its own plugin rather than a module for Patcher, which has always felt like the digital version of dealing with tangled up balls of cords to me. I still got a couple crashes when loading plugins. One major annoyance is that for some reason, I can no longer type within vst plugins to search for presets, as it will always trigger either a shortcut; e.g. if I type "organ", the recording menu will pop up when I type R, or if the type-to-midi function is on, it will just play notes. This is an issue that's just started with FL21.
My biggest request for the next update would be the option to disable the slight shifting when pasting midi. The new marker pasting helps solve this a bit, but as that's a slower process, I'd rather just not have to worry about my midi getting pasted slightly off time in the first place. To expand on themes, being able to adjust the contrast of the piano roll itself to make scale highlighting more obvious would be a good quality of life feature.

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hevy
KVRer
1 posts since 27 Sep, 2021

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:16 am

Trancit wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:19 am [...]
Alone the upates from V20 up to V20.1 contained 60 changes to the programm and whopping 349 bugfixes!!
[...]
Just interesting:
The updates between the 20 initial release and the 21 release (included) are ~ 3700 changes in the changelog.

apoclypse
KVRian
1066 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:19 am

Trancit wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:37 am
apoclypse wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:48 pm I mean why switch to FL Studio then? It's not like people don't know what the program is about. It makes absolutely no sense to me to move to/buy FL Studio if you don't like/want to the workflow. I don't think it makes sense for FLStudio to give up their whole identity just to attract other DAW users. Especially when their current workflow is as popular as it is. I say this as someone who doesn't really jive with FL Studio (I'm a Logic/S1 user). But I understand that a lot of other people do and if Image Line change the very core of how the application works that could potentially alienate people who depend on it working a very specific way. Like if Logic completely changed overnight I'd be pissed (I was pissed when LPX first came out as it moved/changed a few things from LP9).

I can never understand why some people want everything to be like everything else.
And this is the magic this programm has... It is and feels so great apart this pattern thingie that the people switch to it despite knowing having to squeeze a square pig through a round hole...

Nontheless they are not happy with the "Make unique" orgy and claiming about it...

And to be honest I cannot understand why so many people wanting to FLS not changing...

Despite to your Logic example IL never did absolute changes when it wasn´t absolutely necessary like getting rid of the silly old pattern blocks or the vectorial GUI changes of V12...

...i.e. the implementation of Instrument and Audio tracks was completely optional...
If you don´t want to use it... no problem... go the old way...
I like to add: But then stop whining that you cannot use all the other goodies linear workflow brings with it!

Next comes the double moral standard... blocking development for some silly color changes of the GUI so called "Theming" is completely fine and so much wished by the community...

"I need it so badly to get into the right mood... this is so great... I waited 20 years for that!!!
FLS was all the time so ugly... I never could stand this "greenish" colors..."

Seriously??
You did know the colors before... how can you switch to a DAW or choose a DAW if you cannot stand it´s GUI??

But most likely optional changes to this pattern workflow...

"Oh noooo... this turns FLS into any other DAW!!! It loses it´s soul!!! It´s completely fine how it is now!!! We don´t want another linear DAW clone...
If you don´t want to use patterns go and use something else!!"

:tu:
That’s not a double standard. Theming is feature. What people are suggesting here is to fundamentally change how the application works and has worked since it was created. That’s like buying S1 and complaining that it isn’t Ableton. Well it isn’t meant to be Ableton. It has a different focus.

Anyway you are throwing a lot of “they” around to justify your opinion but where are the statistics or numbers to back up your claims that “people” actually have an issue with the pattern workflow? Two people on KVR doesn’t really count imo. FL Studio is probably one of the the most popular music making apps on the planet. Seems like a lot of people get along with it just fine.

I’m just personally tired of people trying to homogenize everything when there are so many other products that does what they want. Why not just go buy those? S1, Logic, Cubase, Ableton, Bitwig etc exist and have the workflow you supposedly want.

On a side note, IL spending resources on theming is their call to make not yours. They know better than you what resources they have to spend and actual user statistics and data on what users want. No amount of complaining about theming here is going to change that. In fact because they have a vector based interface I’m surprised this wasn’t implemented a long time ago already. Ableton which also has a vector interface has it. IL adds unnecessary graphical flourishes in pretty much everything. Why complain about them adding more?
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

JMC
KVRist
438 posts since 20 Oct, 2001 from belgium

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:03 am

apoclypse wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:19 amOn a side note, IL spending resources on theming is their call to make not yours. They know better than you what resources they have to spend and actual user statistics and data on what users want. No amount of complaining about theming here is going to change that.
Although theming was asked for a lot (and some even did their own UI hacks) it never was on top of our priority list.

But when we extracted all the strings from the sources to localize FL Studio (to Chinese, German, Spanish, ...) we noticed that it had also extracted most of the color and UI values (which were strings as well) taking care of most of the hard work.

Of course it's always more work than expected but in the end it was well worth the effort.
Jean-Marie Cannie @ Image-Line - FL Studio

Trancit
KVRAF
3780 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:12 am

apoclypse wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:19 am That’s not a double standard. Theming is feature. What people are suggesting here is to fundamentally change how the application works and has worked since it was created. That’s like buying S1 and complaining that it isn’t Ableton. Well it isn’t meant to be Ableton. It has a different focus.

....
Sorry but that´s nonsense...
Changing the looks because you don´t like the GUI is not different than having optional partly a different workflow because you have something better to do with your time than menu diving to make 10000 bits unique and this hasn´t to do anything about making it work like a different DAW... it´s just about simplifying and getting rid of tons of actually unnecessay clicks...

I cannot count the endless times when I forgot to make this f*cking clip unique (no matter if Pattern/Automation or Audio) before changing it...having to undo every change after noticing, making unique and doing the whole work again!
And I cannot even imagine how many users this happens on a daily base...
Very appealing workflow... the more often you do something...the more it trains your skills! :tu:

FL Studio´s essence is not in having to make something unique all day long... and the change could be quite easy but get´s refused since the beginning...

Every DAW which has a shared/linked copy feature has a modifier key to do so on the fly...
...i.e. in a normal DAW CTRL+ left drag to make a unique copy...CTRL+ALT drag to make a shared/linked copy... easy peasy...

Why isn´t that possible in FLS???
Shift+ left drag for a shared/linked copy ... CTRL+Shift left drag to make a unique copy...
Or at least a shortcut for making something unique...
Even as they implemented the new make unique command into the playlist menu... no shortcut!

Trancit
KVRAF
3780 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:15 am

never mind... doesn´t change anything anyway!

apoclypse
KVRian
1066 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:54 am

Trancit wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:12 am
apoclypse wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:19 am That’s not a double standard. Theming is feature. What people are suggesting here is to fundamentally change how the application works and has worked since it was created. That’s like buying S1 and complaining that it isn’t Ableton. Well it isn’t meant to be Ableton. It has a different focus.

....
Sorry but that´s nonsense...
Changing the looks because you don´t like the GUI is not different than having optional partly a different workflow because you have something better to do with your time than menu diving to make 10000 bits unique and this hasn´t to do anything about making it work like a different DAW... it´s just about simplifying and getting rid of tons of actually unnecessay clicks...

I cannot count the endless times when I forgot to make this f*cking clip unique (no matter if Pattern/Automation or Audio) before changing it...having to undo every change after noticing, making unique and doing the whole work again!
And I cannot even imagine how many users this happens on a daily base...
Very appealing workflow... the more often you do something...the more it trains your skills! :tu:

FL Studio´s essence is not in having to make something unique all day long... and the change could be quite easy but get´s refused since the beginning...

Every DAW which has a shared/linked copy feature has a modifier key to do so on the fly...
...i.e. in a normal DAW CTRL+ left drag to make a unique copy...CTRL+ALT drag to make a shared/linked copy... easy peasy...

Why isn´t that possible in FLS???
Shift+ left drag for a shared/linked copy ... CTRL+Shift left drag to make a unique copy...
Or at least a shortcut for making something unique...
Even as they implemented the new make unique command into the playlist menu... no shortcut!
You can apologize but it won't change anything and you are grasping at straws with that GUI argument. For one you argue that they spent unnecessary resources on theming but then your argument is that FL Studio doesn't work like you want it to so they should spend unnecessary resources to cater to your preferences? How does that not sound like nonsense. If your argument was based on statistical data (showing that a majority of users find this to be an issue, or that theming was a waste of resources) I would give you the benefit of the doubt but for now you just sound like someone who thinks they are speaking for everyone.

Now as for the rest. What you wrote here makes more sense.There should be an easier way to create unique patterns and copies with shortcuts. I agree with that however that wasn't clear in your earlier posts. If that's all that you need then sure I agree. However your earlier posts made it seem like you wanted the whole pattern paradigm to change in FL Studio and imo that's pretty fundamental to how the application works as it's a TR based sequencer at its very core. Machine for example works pretty much the same way as it too is a TR based sequencer at its heart (even though it looks like an MPC).
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

Dionysos
KVRist
434 posts since 26 Sep, 2007

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:05 am

God, Trancit, you sound exhausted, and reading your posts is exhausting.
Trancit wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:26 pm Just go through the demo tracks IL provide themselves and have a look how many actually are making use of real patterns... at max for the drums but this could be solved differently...
What people like using is the linked copy feature Patterns automatically provide but this isn´t actually something you need patterns for like Cubase and others already have shown...
Linked copies are literally patterns. Finished demo tracks don't seem to make much use of patterns because they tend to disappear as variation is added to a song during the arrangement process. But they're extremely useful for making broad changes during draft arrangement, when things aren't set in stone yet. I feel the pain of not having patterns/linked copies in Bitwig every time I use it.

IMO it's fairly obvious that FL has patterns not for ideological reasons (LOL) or because the devs are die-hard pattern fans who can't imagine that people might not need them, but because FL started out as a simple drum sequencer. It's a very old, foundational design decision that's still visible in its current design, and contrary to what you're saying, not easily changed.

Adding a keyboard shortcut, sure why not, but making it the default would be madness given the limited pattern pool.

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Igro
KVRAF
4601 posts since 26 Apr, 2007 from Noosphere

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:54 am

apoclypse wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:48 pm
Igro wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:31 pm
Trancit wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:41 pm
Igro wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:54 pm ...and choose "make this clip unique" and add additional drawings there without affecting other clips. I know it is not exactly how others DAW work, but it is very close. ...
No, sadly it´s absolutely not and it stands in the way of many things...
For people not really using the advantages of real patterns (not something purely name abusing like Presonus did) it´s nothing but annoying, cumbersome and just makes everything more difficult!
I agree, it is not user friendly for the users that came to FL from the other DAWs (myself included). And I hope that at some point FL would bring that change. For the users that switched to FL from a standard workflow DAW, the whole pattern paradigm is an additional burden they have to live with.
I mean why switch to FL Studio then? It's not like people don't know what the program is about. It makes absolutely no sense to me to move to/buy FL Studio if you don't like/want to the workflow.

I can never understand why some people want everything to be like everything else.
I like the workflow. I like the GUI, it is appealing. I like the effects (there are like 4-5 synths/samplers for drums only!). I like the price.
I remember once the Studio One has been upgraded, they didn't want to fix a bug in the older version, saying that I have to upgrade (and pay for it) and then investigate further. Won't happen with the FL. There is no bureaucracy in Image-Line, you are interacting directly with the team. I can live with the shortcomings.
Last edited by Igro on Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Igro
KVRAF
4601 posts since 26 Apr, 2007 from Noosphere

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:58 am

Dionysos wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:05 am God, Trancit, you sound exhausted, and reading your posts is exhausting.
Trancit wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:26 pm Just go through the demo tracks IL provide themselves and have a look how many actually are making use of real patterns... at max for the drums but this could be solved differently...
What people like using is the linked copy feature Patterns automatically provide but this isn´t actually something you need patterns for like Cubase and others already have shown...
Linked copies are literally patterns. Finished demo tracks don't seem to make much use of patterns because they tend to disappear as variation is added to a song during the arrangement process. But they're extremely useful for making broad changes during draft arrangement, when things aren't set in stone yet. I feel the pain of not having patterns/linked copies in Bitwig every time I use it.

IMO it's fairly obvious that FL has patterns not for ideological reasons (LOL) or because the devs are die-hard pattern fans who can't imagine that people might not need them, but because FL started out as a simple drum sequencer. It's a very old, foundational design decision that's still visible in its current design, and contrary to what you're saying, not easily changed.

Adding a keyboard shortcut, sure why not, but making it the default would be madness given the limited pattern pool.
I guess Trancit didn't mean changing the defaults. Just the options.

Trancit
KVRAF
3780 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:08 am

I am sorry if my way of writing does exhaust you... it´s not meant like this... just listing my arguments! :tu:
Dionysos wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:05 am Linked copies are literally patterns. ...
Not for my understanding... linked or shared copies are a feature/side effect of patterns but when I speak of a pattern I mean a musical building block...

What really defines a pattern for me is that at the very end you have the choice to even be able to create a whole song in one single clip...
For me patterns are exactly what FLS offers... containing notes and data for an unlimited number of generators with an unlimited duration including automation...
And nearly noone makes use out of what makes patterns different from normal midi clips...

But exactly this feature is what blocks further development with the argument "but what if a pattern contains data for multiple generators..."

Example: More and more coming legimate requests for 2 features:

1. Being able to drop midi directly into the timeline which is the standard behaviour in every "normal" DAW and saves tons of clicks compared to FLS´current way...

Answer: "No this isn´t possible because FL Studio wouldn´t know to which generator the notes shall go to..."
Ridiculous... a) nearly no one uses Patterns like this but the pure possiblity prohibits this option...b) with instrument tracks FLS would know very well to which generator this shall be going to...

2. Copying/moving a clip from one instrument track to another automatically assigns the midi to the other generator linked to this other instrument track...

Answer: "No, we can´t do that... what if that clip contains data for multiple generators ... how shall FLS react then..."
Again... ridiculous... a) again nearly no one uses this feature and b) especially not on an instrument track and c) even if one does then don´t use this feature or at least expect to have manually working after...
But don´t let that be an excuse for having a much easier workflow!

And there are tons of more examples where FLS is unnecessarily cumbersome for a feature nobody uses and if so which could be solved for this few situations differently with ease...

I wouldn´t want to get rid of linked/shared clips but everything else is just looking nice on the paper but in reality it´s causing nothing but trouble for a very little advantage it might bring on the table for I think just a handful people...

Trancit
KVRAF
3780 posts since 27 Jul, 2004

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:17 am

apoclypse wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:54 am Now as for the rest. What you wrote here makes more sense.There should be an easier way to create unique patterns and copies with shortcuts. I agree with that however that wasn't clear in your earlier posts. If that's all that you need then sure I agree. However your earlier posts made it seem like you wanted the whole pattern paradigm to change in FL Studio and imo that's pretty fundamental to how the application works as it's a TR based sequencer at its very core. Machine for example works pretty much the same way as it too is a TR based sequencer at its heart (even though it looks like an MPC).
Thank you that we can agree on one point...

You are right... the most I am unconfident with is the cumbersomeness of making unique and the clutter it creates respectively what happens if you forgot to make unique before...

Second do I have not really an understanding why audio clips in FLS are following the same scheme as especially this makes no sense for me...

I would be already be very happy if at least there would come a shortcut or a modifier key to make this process easier accessable ... both in best case...
While the newly implemented Make unique command of the playlist is often unuseable...

If I select a bunch of the same clips and excute this command every single one is a unique copy which is most of the time not what you want...
If I personally select multiple same clips... I want them to be ONE unique copy...
If I select different clips... I want to make them completely unique...

There is so much which imho works the wrong way for my personal logic... but this topic gets never really adressed

apoclypse
KVRian
1066 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:29 pm

Trancit wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:17 am
apoclypse wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:54 am Now as for the rest. What you wrote here makes more sense.There should be an easier way to create unique patterns and copies with shortcuts. I agree with that however that wasn't clear in your earlier posts. If that's all that you need then sure I agree. However your earlier posts made it seem like you wanted the whole pattern paradigm to change in FL Studio and imo that's pretty fundamental to how the application works as it's a TR based sequencer at its very core. Machine for example works pretty much the same way as it too is a TR based sequencer at its heart (even though it looks like an MPC).
Thank you that we can agree on one point...

You are right... the most I am unconfident with is the cumbersomeness of making unique and the clutter it creates respectively what happens if you forgot to make unique before...

Second do I have not really an understanding why audio clips in FLS are following the same scheme as especially this makes no sense for me...

I would be already be very happy if at least there would come a shortcut or a modifier key to make this process easier accessable ... both in best case...
While the newly implemented Make unique command of the playlist is often unuseable...

If I select a bunch of the same clips and excute this command every single one is a unique copy which is most of the time not what you want...
If I personally select multiple same clips... I want them to be ONE unique copy...
If I select different clips... I want to make them completely unique...

There is so much which imho works the wrong way for my personal logic... but this topic gets never really adressed
This is a fundamental thing for pattern based sequencers because unlike a clip based sequencer like Ableton or a region based sequencer like Logic each pattern is a reference vs an instance or copy. It's how most pattern sequencers are designed. If you've ever used a drum machine or a workstation that's kind of how they work. Again I mention Maschine because that's exactly how it works with the same Mark Unique behavior and pattern reference vs copy as FL Studio. FL Studio's pedigree is a TR based sequencer (as in the old Roland TR-808/909/707 sequencers), where you have a bank of set patterns that are referenced during playback. So the playlist is the equivalent of telling a TR based sequencer play pattern 1 then pattern 2, then pattern 3 etc.

So imo there is nothing to address. It's a design choice based on a workflow that has existed in hardware for quite some time. FL Studio is built around the reference pattern based sequencer. Even audio works this way. When you drag and drop an audio file into FL Studio it's automatically creating a pattern with that audio file loaded into a sampler instrument. Which is why I think that you want to fundamentally change how FL Studio "thinks" because you don't "get it". At that point it's best to use something else that suit you imo.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

AdvancedFollower
KVRian
1071 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden

Post Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:14 am

FakeNatty wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:19 am wish they improved the ghost notes along with all this theming feature. Seeing ghost notes in 1 color really isn't helpful, and needing to select which piano roll to edit from a drop down menu also defeats the purpose of ghost notes.
Adding to this, only being able to color notes by MIDI Channel is..odd. It might have made sense in the 1990's when everyone used multi-timbral hardware synths but not any more. It would make things much clearer if you could color notes based on velocity, track/channel, note number/scale etc. or simply choose arbitrary colors for each channel.
Also it's frustrating that you can't show ghost notes from a different pattern. So if you want to create a melody on top of your chords for example, you have to copy and paste your chords into the pattern to be able to see them and then split them out once you're done (and past them back in again if you want to change something while seeing ghost notes).

The above makes using the piano roll and editing MIDI in FL far less intuitive than other DAWs.

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