In 2022, I paid about 1200 euros for 12 tracks. 2 different mastering engineers, i spent somewhere around 200 euros on engineers who In my opinion were unable to do better than my best effort. I’ve made my money back but most importantly the music is my life’s work and I want it to sound as good as possible. It represents the very best I have to offer and is worth treating with care.
Your economic arguments don’t value this outcome and you under appreciate the mastering professionals in general who are skilled and dedicated in helping the music reach its potential.
If someone is casual about their music and/or doesn’t have the finances there are better ways to spend their hard earned money, no argument.
I’ve been forthcoming. Now it’s your turn.
If Mixing & Mastering are separate professions and skills, why do so many individuals offer both services?
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
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- KVRAF
- 5496 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
Scotty, have your pressed any records or CDs?
Or did you at least master through an Apple Digital Masters Certified Studio?
Looking at your home studio photos, it looks like you've easily spent more than $100,000 on gear. I'll go out on a limb and venture a guess that you've nowhere near made that back from recording local bands and yourself. I assume you made decent money in some other field of work and have used it to fund your passion. Perhaps you're retired or semi-retired and this is a second act for you.
Whatever the case is, I think it's great that you've been fortunate enough to be able to put that kind of money into your home studio and your own music. But your circumstances clearly are an exception, not the rule. Most people here can't afford elective mastering for a vanity project they'll likely never recoup from. And yet they could still upload their music to YouTube, SoundCloud, Bandcamp, or even Apple Music and Spotify (through a distributor like DistroKid) where people could listen, download or purchase it. Even without spending hundreds or thousands on mastering.
Since most people that are producing their music themselves are not in a position to pay for a reputable outside mastering engineer, but they've heard this mantra over and over that "you must master," many end up taking things into their own hands and inevitably overdo it, because they think more equals better.
That gets us back to why I cannot stress enough, if you're just uploading mp3s for internet streaming, just target -14 LUFS and a DR of around 9 (give or take, depending on the genre.) And do as little else as possible. Instead, try to get it to sound right in the mix from the start. This is also an ideal position to be coming from if you need to send it off to get mastered for physical media or Apple Digital Masters.
If you're planning on pressing records or even CDs, then at that point you'll need to send it out to a real mastering engineer. And I mean a real one, not someone you found on Fiverr.
(A real mastering engineer will need to know which media formats you will be distributing. If they don't even ask, stay away.)
Or did you at least master through an Apple Digital Masters Certified Studio?
Looking at your home studio photos, it looks like you've easily spent more than $100,000 on gear. I'll go out on a limb and venture a guess that you've nowhere near made that back from recording local bands and yourself. I assume you made decent money in some other field of work and have used it to fund your passion. Perhaps you're retired or semi-retired and this is a second act for you.
Whatever the case is, I think it's great that you've been fortunate enough to be able to put that kind of money into your home studio and your own music. But your circumstances clearly are an exception, not the rule. Most people here can't afford elective mastering for a vanity project they'll likely never recoup from. And yet they could still upload their music to YouTube, SoundCloud, Bandcamp, or even Apple Music and Spotify (through a distributor like DistroKid) where people could listen, download or purchase it. Even without spending hundreds or thousands on mastering.
Since most people that are producing their music themselves are not in a position to pay for a reputable outside mastering engineer, but they've heard this mantra over and over that "you must master," many end up taking things into their own hands and inevitably overdo it, because they think more equals better.
That gets us back to why I cannot stress enough, if you're just uploading mp3s for internet streaming, just target -14 LUFS and a DR of around 9 (give or take, depending on the genre.) And do as little else as possible. Instead, try to get it to sound right in the mix from the start. This is also an ideal position to be coming from if you need to send it off to get mastered for physical media or Apple Digital Masters.
If you're planning on pressing records or even CDs, then at that point you'll need to send it out to a real mastering engineer. And I mean a real one, not someone you found on Fiverr.
(A real mastering engineer will need to know which media formats you will be distributing. If they don't even ask, stay away.)
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
This thread is getting long and tired. Admittedly it is partly my fault for engaging. Any hapless person that wanders into this thread deserves better. Apologies to them. If you want to share your music or even answer the questions I've asked you, send me a PM. Otherwise let's put this to bed.
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- KVRAF
- 5496 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
OK, Scotty. It was fun while it lasted.
Anyways, too many people have the wrong idea about what mastering is. Even some people who purport to be mastering engineers. That's the point here.
To really wrap your head around it, understand this:
You mix for the MUSIC.
You master for the MEDIUM.
What I mean by that is mastering isn't part of the music creation process. Mastering is part of the music distribution process.
Let's take a hypothetical song. We won't put a specific date on it, but we'll say it has been distributed at one time or another on every popular format of the past 40 years. This song was only recorded and mixed once. But it has been mastered a dozen times or more, at various times by various people for various purposes. There is no single, definitive master.
There are separate masters for vinyl, tape, CD, high-res digital, as well as streaming, with different masters for different services, including Apple Digital Masters.
This song was released as a single, which was mastered for radio. It's also on the album, where it was mastered to sit with the rest of the songs.
There are different masters for Japan and America.
The song was in a commercial, and there's a separate master for that.
It was also in a movie, and once again, a new master.
It was included on the Original Motion Picture soundtrack, a Greatest Hits compilation, and a Best Of album. New masters for each.
And just to generate some more sales every few years, it's reissued, re-released, and... remastered.
See, as a musician, mastering isn't your concern.
It is the concern of the people distributing it as a commercial product.
Anyways, too many people have the wrong idea about what mastering is. Even some people who purport to be mastering engineers. That's the point here.
To really wrap your head around it, understand this:
You mix for the MUSIC.
You master for the MEDIUM.
What I mean by that is mastering isn't part of the music creation process. Mastering is part of the music distribution process.
Let's take a hypothetical song. We won't put a specific date on it, but we'll say it has been distributed at one time or another on every popular format of the past 40 years. This song was only recorded and mixed once. But it has been mastered a dozen times or more, at various times by various people for various purposes. There is no single, definitive master.
There are separate masters for vinyl, tape, CD, high-res digital, as well as streaming, with different masters for different services, including Apple Digital Masters.
This song was released as a single, which was mastered for radio. It's also on the album, where it was mastered to sit with the rest of the songs.
There are different masters for Japan and America.
The song was in a commercial, and there's a separate master for that.
It was also in a movie, and once again, a new master.
It was included on the Original Motion Picture soundtrack, a Greatest Hits compilation, and a Best Of album. New masters for each.
And just to generate some more sales every few years, it's reissued, re-released, and... remastered.
See, as a musician, mastering isn't your concern.
It is the concern of the people distributing it as a commercial product.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
Are you going post your music, tell us about your experience with mastering engineers or are you going to keep “ jaw jawing”with your finger tips?
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- KVRAF
- 5496 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
Scotty, my words stand on their own.
You can choose to listen or not. I don't care.
I'm not on KVR for self-promotion.
You can choose to listen or not. I don't care.
I'm not on KVR for self-promotion.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
Your words don’t stand for much if you won’t answer the same questions you’ve put to me. Send it to me privately I won’t tell a soul.Your humble reserved nature and modesty will remain intact.
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- KVRAF
- 5496 posts since 2 Sep, 2019
It's not about any feigned modesty. Nor have I claimed to be any kind of bigshot by any stretch of the imagination. I simply don't mix business and pleasure. Besides, who wants to dox themselves on the internet in this day and age?
So my arguments will just have to stand on their own merits. I'm fine with that.
So my arguments will just have to stand on their own merits. I'm fine with that.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
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- KVRian
- 1071 posts since 27 Apr, 2016
Anyone mixing will be putting a limiter on the end and done with. Objectivity is non existent. Compounding room and monitoring inadequacy almost certain. No mixing engineer will have gained the detailed ability of sustained mastering specific listening. At best they will have 50/50 mix vs mastering.To suggest they have the same ability as someone who specializes is 100pct BS of the highest order. Listening/work time alone means experience will be 50pct less, you split your job you halve your experience. And even mixing limiting might not be done with any further considerations. I have 6 limiter choices and can and do use them in conjunction with each other. That is just for starters before the many other options I have prior including high end analogue and digital tools. Each limiter alone has multiple characteristics and even tonality and limiting is 1 process of many.djingram wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:49 am Just reading all the replies. Here's a quick summary:
Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but one difference between Mixing & Mastering is mixing involves multiple tracks and building a single audio file. Mastering involves taking that single audio file, not multiple tracks, and optimizing it further.
- Most people agree that Mixing & Mastering should be separate
- Jamcat doesn't think most people should bother with mastering, and that mastering isn't needed today
- Others strongly disagree with Jamcat, but haven't provided any notable rebuttal against Jamcat's points on why mastering is outdated and not needed for most people
With this said, I wonder if the endless people on Fiverr that offer Mixing & Mastering follow this process, where they do Mixing & Mastering in separate stages like I've outlined here, where the mastering part only uses a single audio file that is already mixed. Or I wonder if they don't do this, and are actually only mixing it, not actually mastering it?
1 EQ move in mastering takes a lot of skill in terms of it is better or worse. Couple that with maybe 10-20 other carefully considered adjustments the sum adds up to something much greater than the parts. It is details work. Mastering is specialist, bespoke, detailed audio work and good engineers have many decades of experience. To dismiss that is very short sighted and shows a lack of real world industry experience.
All the more reason to ensure you have a mastering engineer who knows what they are doing as an ally, especially so if you are doing the bulk of recording production and mixing at home. There are so many, knowledge / technical shortfalls here I cannot even begin to start.
Even tool choices in mastering have a fairly high skill level associated with them (all in the ears of course) unless you are are just grabbing what beta testers who got a freebie are suggesting is 'cool man'. I have dumped an absolute minimum of 50pct of demos that was touted as being the next best thing to sliced bread. Watch out for the you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours posters.
Some people's knowledge level is much less than they actually think it is, so they feel inclined to shout about it and then offer no audio. I am not promoting my services here and would not share clients audio anyway.
When you become a specialist you become rather more sensitive to the audio BS'ers.Especially in what should be a specialist field.
I can assure you that in 2023 mastering is important possibly even more important to built a good relationship than ever before. Of course as a mastering engineer I have vested interest but clearly not so desperate as to have to push my name here. However, I will respond to the oft cited nonsense about mastering.
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- KVRAF
- 2564 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
By this reasoning a 50:50 engineer with 10 years experience should be able to offer the same skill as a 100% mastering engineer with 5 years experience? That doesn't sound so bad.Synthman2000 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:25 am No mixing engineer will have gained the detailed ability of sustained mastering specific listening. At best they will have 50/50 mix vs mastering.To suggest they have the same ability as someone who specializes is 100pct BS of the highest order. Listening/work time alone means experience will be 50pct less, you split your job you halve your experience.
(And it's predicated on the unlikely assumption that there are no transferable skills between the two roles...)
Again, the problem of objectivity and compounding errors is avoided if the 50:50 engineer is mastering somebody else's mix.
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- KVRian
- 1071 posts since 27 Apr, 2016
A simplification of reality. You tend to find most people mastering music as a dedicated profession using the same identical very high quality sound system takes around 10 years before you really start hitting the nails on the head for 90pct of your work throughput (of all genres) at approximately the 10 year mark.
At a mere 5 years you have plenty of work to be doing to continue to get really good at mastering.
At a mere 5 years you have plenty of work to be doing to continue to get really good at mastering.
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- addled muppet weed
- 105800 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
sorry im quoting you again
but i do have to agree.
i only listen to anyone, with regards audio, if theyre willing to share work.
it helps to understand where someone is coming from, not so much from the quality of the work (unless you are looking to hire someone for something, this isnt relevant) but the style and aesthetics they have in their music, will define what kind of post processing is relevant.
i doubt people doing garage punk (not the punk pop shite like blink 182) give two shits about mastering, whereas someone doing a more intimate, acoustic music will be looking for as much clarity as possible.
for me, these days, im not interested in getting things mastered, because i do this because i enjoy it, not because im looking to write a hit, or even sell a track. dont even care if no one listens tbh, not that i dont appreciate it when people do, but its for me that i do it, and its the doing it i enjoy, i only actually listen back to my youtube stuff, occasionally last thing at night to sleep to. and thats because i know the playlist wont suddenly blurt out some loud advert as im not monetised
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
I appreciate your comments Vurt. I'd enjoy listening to your music and seeing your youttube videos. If you are inclined to share, send me a PM or post links here if you are comfortable in doing so. I've read your posts for years. I've been on this platform since 2002. Cheers!
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- addled muppet weed
- 105800 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
https://youtube.com/@vurttv6415Scotty wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:44 am I appreciate your comments Vurt. I'd enjoy listening to your music and seeing your youttube videos. If you are inclined to share, send me a PM or post links here if you are comfortable in doing so. I've read your posts for years. I've been on this platform since 2002. Cheers!
it's pretty much all live recording.
some overly long bits too
