Image Line Acquires UVI

[tony10000]

I suppose it is possible... but I just never see evidence of it. It's a very small sample set, but I know about 50 musicians over the past 5 years and not one of them used FL. At least half used Live, some Studio One, some Garageband/Logic, etc.

And all the hardware companies who market to Live users and hardly mention FL Studio speaks much louder to me than a few claims online. If FL actually had such a large and active userbase, companies would market to it.

I think the thing here is that you're looking at the wrong demographic. The average new FL Studio user isn't a musician looking to record some tracks. They're kids who can pester their parents to get it for them for Xmas/birthday money, and then have a tool that they can use to create music by clicking it into the piano roll. That might sound weird and wacky to some people - but it's a much, much lower barrier to entry. Catering to musicians means that your potential customer base is limited to those who have the resources to purchase an instrument or two (costing much more than the price of entry to FL), and had the dedication to pursue it for a few years before deciding they wanted to record their music.

Your sample size doesn't matter so much as who is in your sample set. You've been on KVR nearly two decades, so you come from a different generation. You're obviously seeing this from a totally different perspective - that of the traditional musician, and those are quite likely the bulk of the people you associate with. Not people calling themselves "producers" or "beatmakers".

So the fact that FL Studio is, quite frankly, shit when it comes to MIDI hardware support (hence nobody supporting it, because it isn't even MIDI-compliant) and makes audio recording a convoluted process doesn't matter to these kids. What matters is the affordable pricing and the fact that they can use the PC/laptop they already have to create music. They don't need anything else to get started. And FL Studio's piano roll is far superior to the competition when it comes to this use case, so it really ticks the boxes for that demographic.

That's not to say there aren't musicians using FL Studio, or that you can't create rock or whatever in it, just that it's probably not the first port of call for the average user who is playing in bands and coming at this from the whole "capturing a live performance" angle. But those kids are all somewhere else (reddit, Discord etc.), doing their thing without you even knowing it

[Double Tap]

And then there are heavyweights like Arturia, Output, Spectrasonics, Antares, Waves or Universal Audio will be looking to acquire.

Is Output a heavyweight in the market? Never thought so...

Not by any metric i would use.

They are just 'great' with marketing, reminds me a bit of unison tbh.
It happens quite often that I search for something around other DAWs, or plugins, and then the first result is the Output page, they hijack your search results with advertisements that make you think it is what you look for.
I purchased a few OutPut things, back in the days, but if you look at Arcarde, you see that marketing took over everything.

So they are not a heavyweight in my books, not by far.

They got a $45m investment in 2020 and were aiming for more than 100 employees, which is pretty hefty. People on KVR who know the difference between a comb filter and a flanger probably don't have a huge amount of use for the kind of soundware that Output make. I just reminded myself what Arcade is - basically it's loops and samples but with enough controls that you can transform them easily enough to make something that doesn't sound like someone else's loop. Good for some kinds of beatmakers and hobbyists.

https://cdm.link/2020/10/music-making-p ... nvestment/

[tony10000]

And then there are heavyweights like Arturia, Output, Spectrasonics, Antares, Waves or Universal Audio will be looking to acquire.

Is Output a heavyweight in the market? Never thought so...

Not by any metric i would use.

They are just 'great' with marketing, reminds me a bit of unison tbh.
It happens quite often that I search for something around other DAWs, or plugins, and then the first result is the Output page, they hijack your search results with advertisements that make you think it is what you look for.
I purchased a few OutPut things, back in the days, but if you look at Arcarde, you see that marketing took over everything.

So they are not a heavyweight in my books, not by far.

They got a $45m investment in 2020 and were aiming for more than 100 employees, which is pretty hefty. People on KVR who know the difference between a comb filter and a flanger probably don't have a huge amount of use for the kind of soundware that Output make. I just reminded myself what Arcade is - basically it's loops and samples but with enough controls that you can transform them easily enough to make something that doesn't sound like someone else's loop. Good for some kinds of beatmakers and hobbyists.

https://cdm.link/2020/10/music-making-p ... nvestment/

It looks that their recent success was fueled by the pandemic when people were at home and looking for things to do. And a lot of YouTubers were promoting it.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... t%20arcade

They have a long way to go to be competitive with Splice:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... 11b6ntnbdy

[Urs]

https://cdm.link/2020/10/music-making-p ... nvestment/

"420,000+ musicians using Arcade since its 2018 launch"



That would probably make it the most successful virtual instrument of all times, and yet when you search for it on KVR you get 333 or so search results, when Omnisphere or Diva are in the tens of thousands, even though Diva only sold like 50k copies in 10 years.

This doesn't add up IMHO

(edit: similar metrics on Gearspace and VI Control... and Soundcloud... and Youtube)

[Double Tap]

https://cdm.link/2020/10/music-making-p ... nvestment/

"420,000+ musicians using Arcade since its 2018 launch"



That would probably make it the most successful virtual instrument of all times, and yet when you search for it on KVR you get 333 or so search results, when Omnisphere or Diva are in the tens of thousands, even though Diva only sold like 50k copies in 10 years.

This doesn't add up IMHO

They're probably including all the user accounts, rather than people who actively subscribe. So with all the free sign ups, that would make more sense?

But I think if you're looking on KVR for its user base, you're looking in the wrong place - more likely to be DJs, podcasters and Youtubers.

[tony10000]

I suppose it is possible... but I just never see evidence of it. It's a very small sample set, but I know about 50 musicians over the past 5 years and not one of them used FL. At least half used Live, some Studio One, some Garageband/Logic, etc.

And all the hardware companies who market to Live users and hardly mention FL Studio speaks much louder to me than a few claims online. If FL actually had such a large and active userbase, companies would market to it.

So the fact that FL Studio is, quite frankly, shit when it comes to MIDI hardware support (hence nobody supporting it, because it isn't even MIDI-compliant) and makes audio recording a convoluted process doesn't matter to these kids. What matters is the affordable pricing and the fact that they can use the PC/laptop they already have to create music. They don't need anything else to get started. And FL Studio's piano roll is far superior to the competition when it comes to this use case, so it really ticks the boxes for that demographic.

No hardware support????

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... controller

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... controller

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... -fl-studio

https://www.image-line.com/fl-studio/midi-controllers/

[jules99]

https://cdm.link/2020/10/music-making-p ... nvestment/

"420,000+ musicians using Arcade since its 2018 launch"



That would probably make it the most successful virtual instrument of all times, and yet when you search for it on KVR you get 333 or so search results, when Omnisphere or Diva are in the tens of thousands, even though Diva only sold like 50k copies in 10 years.

This doesn't add up IMHO

Much of the younger music production audience would not go anywhere near forums like KVR. Their whole world is on Social Media. And there, beside FL, Arcade is king over just about any other software instrument, so their numbers might be quite high.

But also, given that it is a subscription-based tool, I have a hunch that Output is counting every user ever, not just active subscriptions .

[Double Tap]

They got a $45m investment in 2020 and were aiming for more than 100 employees, which is pretty hefty. People on KVR who know the difference between a comb filter and a flanger probably don't have a huge amount of use for the kind of soundware that Output make. I just reminded myself what Arcade is - basically it's loops and samples but with enough controls that you can transform them easily enough to make something that doesn't sound like someone else's loop. Good for some kinds of beatmakers and hobbyists.

https://cdm.link/2020/10/music-making-p ... nvestment/

It looks that their recent success was fueled by the pandemic when people were at home and looking for things to do. And a lot of YouTubers were promoting it.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... t%20arcade

They have a long way to go to be competitive with Splice:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... 11b6ntnbdy

Yeah I'm sure they were doing well on the back of lockdown looping (although you can't really compare a search term and a platform). Curiously the competitive advertising I get when I search for Arcade is from Soundtrap (the ad says "Alternative to Output Arcade"), which I see that Spotify has now bought up.

[Urs]

Much of the younger music production audience would not go anywhere near forums like KVR. Their whole world is on Social Media. And there, beside FL, Arcade is king over just about any other software instrument, so their numbers might be quite high.

Hmmm, what kind of social media?

I still see the same picture on Youtube and Soundcloud. Where do these young musician folks hang out?

Anyhow. Curious stuff.

(Oi, on Instagram there's 155 hits for Output Arcade and only 55 for u-he Diva... we're onto something!)

[Hevy_IL]

So they are not a heavyweight in my books, not by far.

I always thought there was a disconnect between the way they present themselves and the reality of their popularity, but then I ran Output Arcade in Google Trends against Omnisphere, and by that metric they seem quite on top of things.

OTOH I usually compare hits in forum searches (how many topics/posts etc.), and there their products don't seem to play a significant role.

I can relate to that thought.
Arcade is tailored to be the one-click-wonder thing, which speaks to a lot of users from specific corners.
They seem to be quite big, but don't play any role in my metrics.
I'm more annoyed by the way they advertise.
Interesting that they have not that many forum searches, as Arcade has major issues in FL Studio from time to time, always fixed by updates on their end, while I have the feeling that most of their users are in FL Studio.

[otristan]

Much of the younger music production audience would not go anywhere near forums like KVR. Their whole world is on Social Media. And there, beside FL, Arcade is king over just about any other software instrument, so their numbers might be quite high.

Hmmm, what kind of social media?

I still see the same picture on Youtube and Soundcloud. Where do these young musician folks hang out?

Anyhow. Curious stuff.

(Oi, on Instagram there's 155 hits for Output Arcade and only 55 for u-he Diva... we're onto something!)

Until recently I didn't know that Splice was really an important stuff. But some younger folks at UVI
showed me I was wrong.
You probably need to bring some younger person in your team for perspective

[CrystalWizard]

And then there are heavyweights like Arturia, Output, Spectrasonics, Antares, Waves or Universal Audio will be looking to acquire.

Is Output a heavyweight in the market? Never thought so...

Not by any metric i would use.

They are just 'great' with marketing, reminds me a bit of unison tbh.
It happens quite often that I search for something around other DAWs, or plugins, and then the first result is the Output page, they hijack your search results with advertisements that make you think it is what you look for.
I purchased a few OutPut things, back in the days, but if you look at Arcarde, you see that marketing took over everything.

So they are not a heavyweight in my books, not by far.

Indeed, if marketing hype was a metric i cared about then Output might be considered 'heavyweights'.

[Urs]

You probably need to bring some younger person in your team for perspective

You mean people who didn't grow up with Frank Zappa?

(but thanks for the hint at Splice... still same metric, few hits for Arcade, endless scrolling for, well, other entries)

[Held]

Another consideration i want to make, even if as you said it was one of the most pirated software, it seems they managed to being able to (fortunatly) stay healthy and even buy other companies.
In 2 words, they have a good and working business system, being the most user friendly possible, may be a part of the success, but unfortunatly this doesn't show up in numbers, so it's important to point that out imo.

It's called Loss Aversion. People focus much more on avoiding a (perceived) loss through annoying copy protection than a gain by making life easier for paying customers than pirates.

I hope the don't push MeldaProducation towards C/R as well.

[Frankie.T]

Another consideration i want to make, even if as you said it was one of the most pirated software, it seems they managed to being able to (fortunatly) stay healthy and even buy other companies.
In 2 words, they have a good and working business system, being the most user friendly possible, may be a part of the success, but unfortunatly this doesn't show up in numbers, so it's important to point that out imo.

It's called Loss Aversion. People focus much more on avoiding a (perceived) loss through annoying copy protection than a gain by making life easier for paying customers than pirates.

I hope the don't push MeldaProducation towards C/R as well.

I hope that too, along the idea they may reconsider to going back to the more friendly key auth method