Image Line Acquires UVI

[Frankie.T]

That's the reason i do not understand the c/r for activate your product. Some people value a lot the freedom to own something bought.

You can believe me when I say we'd rather have no copy protection at all but as long as people can't seem to handle the freedom we have little other choice.

This said we're communicating on a 20(?)-year old forum that requires C/R to communicate and most of our emails/social media/pictures and videos are stored by what some consider the most evil companies on the planet.

It usually takes about 6 weeks to 6 months for a new release to be cracked so in the worst case where Image-Line collapses and we don't compile a free version before it does ... you'd have to wait 6 weeks to 6 months in order to use the last version.

I proudly own an original licence of FL so i have to wait nothing in order to use the latest version.

I payed nothing for the forum, my work does not rely on a forum, same for the most evil companies.

I had bad, very bad experience with other LEGIT software i bought because of copy protection system, i had no way to continue my job because of that and this is something i really want to avoid with more user friendly software, as it was FL till now.

Copy protection punish only legit people who give money to companies, while pirates have great laugh watching on me screaming because i cannot use something i payed for, while they can use it without spend even a cent.

Since you was able to doing everything healthy and in a great way, i do not understand this decisions that make some people (like me) unconfortable to buy and use something that doesn't rely on me.

Just imagine in a morning you have to go to work, and your car doesn't start just because your car manufacture have a server issue, or something... not a nice experience.

We can spend all the days arguing why we have "the right reasons" but the truth is more complicated. Different point of view, different motivation, i understand that, and i don't even want to open that topic, because it's pointles, i'm against piracy as you.

But the point into limiting the independence of legit users with no reasons make me worry even more.
I mean i would understand this decision if it was matter of keep or close the business, but it's 20 years of successfull business with that model, so i can only see a short term greed as motivation.

I may be wrong, i don't even care about that tbh, what i care is the absourd situation where i have less freedom over something i bought than people that stole it

[dayjob]

well this turned into worst thread of the year... so far.

My fault.

nah.. quite often it just seems like the fate of things on the internet. like when there's a big kegger in a field and a bunch of drunk people walking off to go pee and some dudes are so drunk they pee on each others shoes or pant's leg w/o even knowing.

[jules99]

Part of me wants to see the plugin folders of those who so heavily advocate in favor of no C/R.

[tony10000]

Not the answer to the question you're asking, but I'm definitely contemplating moving to Reaper if I find that 20.8.4 (the last version without C/R) is no longer fit for my purposes. If only Reaper's PR wasn't such a UX nightmare, it'd be a lot easier to take the plunge. I know I'm not the only one at least wondering whether this isn't the sign that it's time to jump ship.

FL Studio is currently my daily driver, but I also own and use Reaper, Live, Bitwig, Studio One, and Cubase. So, I am not at the mercy of any company's C/R server (or an internet connection) to keep making music. As they say, "one monkey don't stop no show".

[rasmusklump]

Part of me wants to see the plugin folders of those who so heavily advocate in favor of no C/R.

exactly one C/R (Ultraanalog) and I don't use it because of that reason.
I already had countless projects that I couldn't open anymore correctly because some plugins wouldn't work anymore.
And the defs that are promising unlock codes in case they vanish are big fat liars. Just look at N.I. they even didn't need to shut their doors to refuse new response code for their older products....

[myfragileego]

Just to prevent it seeming like an anti-DRM echo chamber in here, I don’t have a problem with it unless it screws with my disk (like old Sony DRM did) and I am fine with a once in a while online call home. It’s usually a 2 second wait for authorisation and done. I bet I’ve spent a lot less time of my life waiting for online DRM authentication than reading about how much people hate it on here.

Also, telling someone whose company made $29 million pre-tax profit with their DRM system in place to just let a few things slide and abandon it and rely on ‘moral fiber’ gave me a rare laugh on a Monday morning so thanks for that.

I don't hear anyone complaining about the cracking groups, the people reselling licenses and the people who take what was not given. They're the real villains here.

I have no problem with copy protection, in fact on the contrary I respect companies protecting their hard work and intellectual property. I happily use iLok, and any other copy protection schemes as long as the interruptions are minimal. If super-strong copy protection means the company behind a product I love is profitable and remains viable, and can continue to support and enhance the product, with a reduced need to sting customers for ongoing maintenance costs, I consider that a win for everyone involved.

To those valiant defenders fighting the good fight against the pirate horde, stay strong, and stay true to your convictions. I wish you every success.

[tony10000]

That's the reason i do not understand the c/r for activate your product. Some people value a lot the freedom to own something bought.

You can believe me when I say we'd rather have no copy protection at all but as long as people can't seem to handle the freedom we have little other choice.

This said we're communicating on a 20(?)-year old forum that requires C/R to communicate and most of our emails/social media/pictures and videos are stored by what some consider the most evil companies on the planet.

It usually takes about 6 weeks to 6 months for a new release to be cracked so in the worst case where Image-Line collapses and we don't compile a free version before it does ... you'd have to wait 6 weeks to 6 months in order to use the last version.

Copy protection punish only legit people who give money to companies, while pirates have great laugh watching on me screaming because i cannot use something i payed for, while they can use it without spend even a cent.

Since you was able to doing everything healthy and in a great way, i do not understand this decisions that make some people (like me) unconfortable to buy and use something that doesn't rely on me.

When have you been deprived of your ability to use FL Studio? Are you speaking hypothetically?

If you want software that does not rely on C/R or copy protection, you have the option to use Reaper and open source and free plugins.

[SamDi]

Double post->deleted

[SamDi]

Much of the younger music production audience would not go anywhere near forums like KVR. Their whole world is on Social Media. And there, beside FL, Arcade is king over just about any other software instrument, so their numbers might be quite high.

Hmmm, what kind of social media?

I still see the same picture on Youtube and Soundcloud. Where do these young musician folks hang out?

Anyhow. Curious stuff.

(Oi, on Instagram there's 155 hits for Output Arcade and only 55 for u-he Diva... we're onto something!)

I guess for young people much is running on Reddit and also Discord seems to be a growing ressource. I don't think Arcade is that big, as the number suggests. Seems to be rather marketing - who knows, where it comes from.

But what is also clear is that there is a big distortion on KVR, since it's a kind of bubble.
Similar with YT, where the amount of videos seems to be rather linked to promotional actions, than real interest in the market. Take Bitwig as an example: it feels, like half of the influencers are jumping on Bitwig. But as Google Trends shows it's just a minor niche DAW.

I assume, the most reliable source to measure some sort of impact is really Google Trends.

What here is pretty forgotten is the huge market of all this Hip Hop&Rap stuff and the fine granulared eco-system around it (beat-makers, loop-makers, etc.)

Either FL Studio as Arcade (as I guess) contribute to this market very well and generate a huge amount of users there, which will never be visible here.

[sjm]

You don't "own" the product. You "own" a license to use the product subject to the license agreement that can be modified by the IP owner at any time.

Depends where you are. In the EU, it's like a book. You don't own the right to the copyrighted content of said book, but you certainly do own that copy of it. With software, the copyrighted content is the source code, which you don't own. You do own the your copy of the software, and are free to do with it as you like. It might be more obvious with something tangible like a physical book rather than software, but the principle is the same.

And while the IP holder can modify a license agreement, it's obviously not retroactive and you are free to opt out of the changes and continue using a previous version under the old license terms.

[Frankie.T]

That's the reason i do not understand the c/r for activate your product. Some people value a lot the freedom to own something bought.

You can believe me when I say we'd rather have no copy protection at all but as long as people can't seem to handle the freedom we have little other choice.

This said we're communicating on a 20(?)-year old forum that requires C/R to communicate and most of our emails/social media/pictures and videos are stored by what some consider the most evil companies on the planet.

It usually takes about 6 weeks to 6 months for a new release to be cracked so in the worst case where Image-Line collapses and we don't compile a free version before it does ... you'd have to wait 6 weeks to 6 months in order to use the last version.

Copy protection punish only legit people who give money to companies, while pirates have great laugh watching on me screaming because i cannot use something i payed for, while they can use it without spend even a cent.

Since you was able to doing everything healthy and in a great way, i do not understand this decisions that make some people (like me) unconfortable to buy and use something that doesn't rely on me.

When have you been deprived of your ability to use FL Studio? Are you speaking hypothetically?

If you want software that does not rely on C/R or copy protection, you have the option to use Reaper and open source and free plugins.

I'm speaking about plugins from other companies, not hypothetic situation. But what already happened to me in 20 years.

I understand people can do music as hobby, and it's awesome, but some of us, work with music.
If i produce a song with a specific DAW and certain plugins, and for certain reason i cannot open the project because of that (and it happened) and i have a client with deadline, it's a damn mess for me.

Using another DAW, or other plugins is not a viable option when you need to open and continue a work you already started. All this would be lots of efforts and money, for what reason? Because i'm not a thief and i bought software i use. While in the mean time thief can keep working on their project with their cracked software.

This is not an experience a paid customer should have, neither an experience a company should "sell".

And don't foget, it's proven the fact that healthy business can be done just by running a user friendly system. ImageLine are doing that from ever! So what's the point to change that?


I just want to write a couple of line for people who doesn't care about that and do not understand the reason of this issue. Leaving out the reasons i already wrote, i think it's important for everyone to keep in mind, that every one have differend needs and situations. So if something does not apply for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. Last but not least, a day you may change your own needs too.

[pekbro]

Indeed, copy protection is mainly about paying customers who are really the only ones who it can work on. It's probably wrong however to assume that the actions of said paying customers don't warrant such methods.

The thing I find interesting is that a good copy protection system should allow for license transfers, and the main reason for a business to refuse to allow that is money. Someone really should probably challenge them on that in court if it indeed is in violation of EU trade law. Personally, I wouldn't be confident that that they (the company) could win there.

[tony10000]

I'm speaking about plugins from other companies, not hypothetic situation. But what already happened to me in 20 years.

I understand people can do music as hobby, and it's awesome, but some of us, work with music.
If i produce a song with a specific DAW and certain plugins, and for certain reason i cannot open the project because of that (and it happened) and i have a client with deadline, it's a damn mess for me.

Using another DAW, or other plugins is not a viable option when you need to open and continue a work you already started. All this would be lots of efforts and money, for what reason? Because i'm not a thief and i bought software i use. While in the mean time thief can keep working on their project with their cracked software.

This is not an experience a paid customer should have, neither an experience a company should "sell".

And don't foget, it's proven the fact that healthy business can be done just by running a user friendly system. ImageLine are doing that from ever! So what's the point to change that?

I just want to write a couple of line for people who doesn't care about that and do not understand the reason of this issue. Leaving out the reasons i already wrote, i think it's important for everyone to keep in mind, that every one have differend needs and situations. So if something does not apply for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. Last but not least, a day you may change your own needs too.

It has happened to all of us. I have been making electronic music for almost 40 years and I have seen many platforms and pieces of software that I used go "poof": Yamaha MSX, Atari ST, Hybrid Arts, Logic (PC), Cakewalk/Sonar, Turtle Beach, Yamaha SW1000XG, LinPlug, etc. Many thousands of dollars of stuff that I cannot use. That is a part of life.

That said, I would like to see companies like Image-Line remain financially healthy and viable so that they can keep developing software. If they have to use C/R and other methods of copy protection to do that, I am okay with it. I have other options to keep working if I cannot access a certain piece of software and create stems of important projects so that I can use them on any DAW.

At some point, the Reg Key situation got way out of hand with folks not only pirating software for their own use, but widely sharing licenses, selling pirated versions of FL Studio on e-commerce sites, and bad actors using it to deliver viral payloads. I think IL did the right thing for the good of their investors and their company.

[SamDi]

I'm speaking about plugins from other companies, not hypothetic situation. But what already happened to me in 20 years.

I understand people can do music as hobby, and it's awesome, but some of us, work with music.
If i produce a song with a specific DAW and certain plugins, and for certain reason i cannot open the project because of that (and it happened) and i have a client with deadline, it's a damn mess for me.

Using another DAW, or other plugins is not a viable option when you need to open and continue a work you already started. All this would be lots of efforts and money, for what reason? Because i'm not a thief and i bought software i use. While in the mean time thief can keep working on their project with their cracked software.

This is not an experience a paid customer should have, neither an experience a company should "sell".

And don't foget, it's proven the fact that healthy business can be done just by running a user friendly system. ImageLine are doing that from ever! So what's the point to change that?


I just want to write a couple of line for people who doesn't care about that and do not understand the reason of this issue. Leaving out the reasons i already wrote, i think it's important for everyone to keep in mind, that every one have differend needs and situations. So if something does not apply for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. Last but not least, a day you may change your own needs too.

Yeah, but this are today's standards. Subscription and licence checking works for large parts in the professional world. Just consider Microsoft or Adobe Products Why should it be different in the music world?

[tony10000]

I'm speaking about plugins from other companies, not hypothetic situation. But what already happened to me in 20 years.

I understand people can do music as hobby, and it's awesome, but some of us, work with music.
If i produce a song with a specific DAW and certain plugins, and for certain reason i cannot open the project because of that (and it happened) and i have a client with deadline, it's a damn mess for me.

Using another DAW, or other plugins is not a viable option when you need to open and continue a work you already started. All this would be lots of efforts and money, for what reason? Because i'm not a thief and i bought software i use. While in the mean time thief can keep working on their project with their cracked software.

This is not an experience a paid customer should have, neither an experience a company should "sell".

And don't foget, it's proven the fact that healthy business can be done just by running a user friendly system. ImageLine are doing that from ever! So what's the point to change that?


I just want to write a couple of line for people who doesn't care about that and do not understand the reason of this issue. Leaving out the reasons i already wrote, i think it's important for everyone to keep in mind, that every one have differend needs and situations. So if something does not apply for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. Last but not least, a day you may change your own needs too.

Yeah, but this are today's standards. Subscription and licence checking works for large parts in the professional world. Just consider Microsoft or Adobe Products Why should it be different in the music world?

And, as Urs wrote, it certainly beats a subscription model!!!!!!