Aliasing on Arturia Plugins?

[bmanic]

Reality check time. You will only hear aliasing if you're really looking for it in isolation.

That's another sweeping generalization.

It all depends on what you are trying to do. If you only go for basic wave forms, some careful non-aggressive filtering with no further processing down the line, then sure, it can be virtually indistinguishable as the aliasing would be so low in the noise floor.

However, if you do any more complex things, even just frequency modulation at audible rates and combine that with a badly aliasing fuzz box emulation, then the aliasing can easily reach well into the -12dBFS range (below original root note/harmonic) which would easily be heard even within a very dense mix. Again, it's entirely a different discussion if this is a good or a bad thing or if it affects the "musicality". That is not under discussion and irrelevant.

[bmanic]

Aliasing on an analogue emulation is not a matter of subjective opinion when there is none in the original piece of hardware that is getting emulated.

But there's a different kind of noise in the original piece of hardware, and it's much louder and always present. Electronics are generally very noisy things with all sorts of weird artifacts of their own.

So? What does that have to do with aliasing?

Hum is a constant static tone at 50 or 60Hz (with usually a few added harmonics) which can be easily dealt with. As for pure white noise/hissing/crackling.. yeah it's there but it is of no real consequence harmonically wise (unless you hate noise in general).

Aliasing is it's own thing and very distinct as it so quickly compounds and causes an inharmonic mess that usually ends up with most of the energy in the area where our ear is most sensitive (2-5kHz region) and can add a lot of extra sizzle in the 10k and higher that isn't exactly "noise" as we normally perceive noise. Again, this can be either a good or bad thing and is entirely subjective but it's not what the analogue counterpart does.

[jamcat]

If you're putting it through "a badly aliasing fuzz box emulation" then you're going to get what you're asking for.

If you run an analogue synth through a fuzz box, it's going to be very noisy. And if you run it through a badly aliasing fuzz box, it's going to be very noisy and aliased.

But is that really how people are using this stuff?
I'm not. I'm using Mini like your first example, for "basic wave forms, and careful non-aggressive filtering." You know, like you would actually use a Minimoog in a song.

That's not to say that you shouldn't use it in other ways, and maybe it does start becoming a problem when you push it outside of normal use. But let's keep perspective and context when discussing it.

[bonch]

That's a very easy and typical cop-out with a slippery slope. You could say the same for anything and drag it down to only using a single recorder or just farting noises.

You're comparing something audible like farting noises to something that, in practice, isn't audible.

Music per say is subjective. Aliasing on an analogue emulation is not a matter of subjective opinion when there is none in the original piece of hardware that is getting emulated. It is purely objective observation.

It's in the eye of the beholder if aliasing bothers you enough for it to affect your music. You're quite arrogant if you make general sweeping statements of what others should or should not perceive as something making your music better.

People don't listen to music through PluginDoctor. If aliasing bothers you enough to affect your opinion of your music, then you're focusing on something that doesn't matter because it's easier than the harder process of making music. That's a trap because you'll feel compelled to buy every new plug-in in search of a magic elixir that will, at last, make your music good enough--until the next plug-in comes out. In reality, most plug-ins from well-known developers like Arturia are already good enough, even the old ones. People still use Massive despite all that icky aliasing. Gross! Cooties! How did anyone ever make music with that thing?

Also, many people just like to play synthesizers, not even necessarily produce music with them. Go tell a pianist that they shouldn't bother getting a quality piano because it doesn't really matter as it wont affect his composing skills. They may as well use a half broken, horribly tinny piece of shit piano, right?

see? slippery slope. Why not instead stay on topic instead of your generalized sweeping "blah blah it's no problem because of XYZ".

You're comparing something audible--"a half-broken, horribly tinny piece of shit piano"--to something that people will never notice. Listeners will never care that the Minimoog emulation playing your bassline exhibits aliasing in PluginDoctor.

[zerocrossing]

It's relevant to point out that the degree of aliasing discussed here doesn't matter in practice.

100% disagree. Maybe your ears are so damaged that it makes no difference, or you don't care, but I hear it. It's especially annoying when you have a lot of it coming from different tracks. I'm no golden ears, but it's often really clear. It can seem like a subtle sourness or harshness to a mix.

[zerocrossing]

Reality check time. You will only hear aliasing if you're really looking for it in isolation.

But if you isolate any track from a song, you'll hear all kinds of garbage: Amplifier noise. Mic handling noise. Fan noise. Air conditioners. Digital Quantization. Noise gate flitter. Coughs, chair squeaks, talking, and all manner of background noise.

And yet, anything that isn't the loudest thing gets completely lost in the mix.
-60dB aliasing is the least of your worries.
So what are we really talking about here?

Here's my reality. Everything you just wrote is pretty much the opposite of my experience. If you've got a track with a synth that's aliasing, it's probably fine, unless you're doing something aggressive and then it can sound crappy. But if you start building up a track of instruments with a aliasing, or amp noise, mic noise, etc, you end up with a crappy sounding mix. It all adds up.

Let's go back to the topic. For a long time I was using all hardware synths, but for irrelevant reasons I had to go ITB. I started checking out plugin instruments. I had money from the sale of my hardware so that went a long way with software, so I started checking things out. I wasn't looking for aliasing. I was just listening and checking stuff out. Not a dime of my money went to Arturia plugins. They just didn't sound good to me. Was it the aliasing? I'm sure that played a part in it.

Now they sound a lot better, at least the most current ones. Part of that is they've managed to bring aliasing down to a point where I'm fine with it, and if I need it to be better I have actual analog that I use as well.

[bonch]

It's relevant to point out that the degree of aliasing discussed here doesn't matter in practice.

100% disagree. Maybe your ears are so damaged that it makes no difference, or you don't care, but I hear it. It's especially annoying when you have a lot of it coming from different tracks. I'm no golden ears, but it's often really clear. It can seem like a subtle sourness or harshness to a mix.

I'm skeptical that anyone here has listened to an album and thought, "Man, this music would have been good if not for the aliasing in that Minimoog" or that ABX tests demonstrated that it had a significant impact on their listening experience when they didn't already know it was there. Aliasing in an old Arturia synth isn't going to cost anyone their Grammy. Hans Zimmer has a career using Zebra 2 despite it being 16 years old (Zebra even had audio bugs in sample rates higher than 44.1 kHz). Massive helped launch countless careers despite its aliasing cooties, and when Serum came along, it wasn't oversampling that made it one of the most popular synths in the industry--it was the workflow and the ability to import wavetables which encouraged a market for third-party preset packs. Workflow is far more important to me than screenshots of PluginDoctor. Does the synth help me make music.

[DrGonzo]

I like aliasing.

[zerocrossing]

It's relevant to point out that the degree of aliasing discussed here doesn't matter in practice.

100% disagree. Maybe your ears are so damaged that it makes no difference, or you don't care, but I hear it. It's especially annoying when you have a lot of it coming from different tracks. I'm no golden ears, but it's often really clear. It can seem like a subtle sourness or harshness to a mix.

I'm skeptical that anyone here has listened to an album and thought, "Man, this music would have been good if not for the aliasing in that Minimoog" or that ABX tests demonstrated that it had a significant impact on their listening experience when they didn't already know it was there. Aliasing in an old Arturia synth isn't going to cost anyone their Grammy. Hans Zimmer has a career using Zebra 2 despite it being 16 years old (Zebra even had audio bugs in sample rates higher than 44.1 kHz). Massive helped launch countless careers despite its aliasing cooties, and when Serum came along, it wasn't oversampling that made it one of the most popular synths in the industry--it was the workflow and the ability to import wavetables which encouraged a market for third-party preset packs. Workflow is far more important to me than screenshots of PluginDoctor. Does the synth help me make music.

You’re bringing up Skrillex? OK, millennial. I thought the world had forgotten about him. I sure did. Massive never did anything for me. I ended up getting it free with Maschine and never used it. I didn’t like the sound or the UI. Zebra… well, the UI isn’t the best, but the sound is good, and I have always run things at 48 kHz and never noticed a bug with it or any noticeable aliasing.

But we’re not talking about Massive or Zebra. We’re talking about Arturia, and its analog emulations. Expecting them not to alias is pretty much the least we can ask in 2023. But go ahead, keep using them. PM me with a list of your Grammys.

[jamcat]

I use Arturia plugins and I don't have a Grammy.
Now I'm beginning to think there may be a connection.

[bonch]

You’re bringing up Skrillex? OK, millennial. I thought the world had forgotten about him. I sure did. Massive never did anything for me. I ended up getting it free with Maschine and never used it. I didn’t like the sound or the UI. Zebra… well, the UI isn’t the best, but the sound is good, and I have always run things at 48 kHz and never noticed a bug with it or any noticeable aliasing.

But we’re not talking about Massive or Zebra. We’re talking about Arturia, and its analog emulations. Expecting them not to alias is pretty much the least we can ask in 2023. But go ahead, keep using them. PM me with a list of your Grammys.

I was referring to more than just Skrillex. Massive was used everywhere, from pop to movie scores to videogame sound design (and still is!). Same with Arturia synths. In fact, Hans Zimmer said he sold his Yamaha GX-1, which originally belonged to John Paul Jones, and replaced it with Arturia's CS-80--and this was an older version from 13 years ago that forum posters today would insist sucked and sounded "nothing like" a CS-80.

[Liero]

The quality of discussion is astounding.

This "artist x used piece of crap tool y and is very successful" is such a nonsense argument. You have no idea how many hours that artist cursed the gear and worked around a problem or bug to create something.

[El°HYM]

I like the Wizard of Oz.

[Lbdunequest]

When i look in the mirror i see aliasing. Am i Arturia?

[muki]

edited...
...wrong thread...