Aliasing on Arturia Plugins?

[zerocrossing]

You’re bringing up Skrillex? OK, millennial. I thought the world had forgotten about him. I sure did. Massive never did anything for me. I ended up getting it free with Maschine and never used it. I didn’t like the sound or the UI. Zebra… well, the UI isn’t the best, but the sound is good, and I have always run things at 48 kHz and never noticed a bug with it or any noticeable aliasing.

But we’re not talking about Massive or Zebra. We’re talking about Arturia, and its analog emulations. Expecting them not to alias is pretty much the least we can ask in 2023. But go ahead, keep using them. PM me with a list of your Grammys.

I was referring to more than just Skrillex. Massive was used everywhere, from pop to movie scores to videogame sound design (and still is!). Same with Arturia synths. In fact, Hans Zimmer said he sold his Yamaha GX-1, which originally belonged to John Paul Jones, and replaced it with Arturia's CS-80--and this was an older version from 13 years ago that forum posters today would insist sucked and sounded "nothing like" a CS-80.

Well, Mr. Zimmer must have regretted that move, because he used a CS-80 on the Blade Runner 2048 soundtrack.

This article in FACT magazine details how Hans Zimmer and Benjamin Wallfisch created the Bladerunner 2049 soundtrack:

"The CS-80 was part of a coterie of synths. They also used the u-he “wireless” modular plugin Zebra, as well as the company’s Diva softsynth, which was designed by Urs Heckmann based on Zimmer’s favorite Minimoog; Wallfisch was able to bring out a DSI Prophet-12 he hadn’t yet had the opportunity to use; a SoundToys Crystallizer granular synth altered compositions and then pieces were put through tape delays and covered in reverb before being processed again with the Crystallizer. “One of the things we talked about was the idea of ‘more human than human,’” Wallfisch says. “When you’re creating, you play a chord, and then all these machines take care of this extraordinary, strange, replicant-style advancement of something acoustic.”"

I honestly have no idea why you’re so hell bent on convincing everyone that aliasing in an analog emulation is fine. I literally use Mr. Alias Pro, and the aforementioned Prophet 12 with its bit depth and rate effects, so I have no problems using it for artistic reasons, but if you are going to make an emulation of something that doesn’t naturally alias, it just plain and simply does not belong there. Arturia doesn’t feel that it belongs there. Or why would they have worked hard to release a new version?

So, maybe Mr. Zimmer will sell his CS-80 now that Arturia and Cherry Audio have released better models. Maybe not. I really don’t care, but if you think you’re going to win the argument that analog emulations should have aliasing in them, you’re going to lose.

[zerocrossing]

The quality of discussion is astounding.

This "artist x used piece of crap tool y and is very successful" is such a nonsense argument. You have no idea how many hours that artist cursed the gear and worked around a problem or bug to create something.

Even more pathetic is this odd attitude that if something is good enough for you, everyone should be happy with it. With this attitude, we’d have never come out of caves. I can’t quite imagine the person’s brain who is presented with an improved instrument and says, “no thanks.”

I know everything involves compromise. Even the mighty GX-1. I’m sure Hans cursed it many times when it wasn’t holding it’s tune well enough to make it though a day’s work. I can write a manifesto about why I stay clear of any vintage instruments, but I also am aware that I give things up as well. I actually bought a used copy of CS-80 V v2 a long time ago for $50, and got some interesting stuff from it, but boy and I glad they revised it. I never even really checked to see what the aliasing was like, but I could tell that it just didn’t sound as good as an actual analog synthesizer, so when I had the funds to buy one, I did. I can say that the amount of Grammys I’ve one was not affected by my purchase.

People might not appreciate the quality difference, so good for them. They can save themselves a lot of money. Your best bet is to never actually compare any software to the real deal, because it can be an expensive experience.

[bonch]

The quality of discussion is astounding.

This "artist x used piece of crap tool y and is very successful" is such a nonsense argument. You have no idea how many hours that artist cursed the gear and worked around a problem or bug to create something.

Speaking of bad arguments, if you have no idea, why would you assume they did at all? And why would professionals keep using a piece of crap tool to this day?

Well, Mr. Zimmer must have regretted that move, because he used a CS-80 on the Blade Runner 2048 soundtrack.

As it says in the quote you pasted as well as in other interviews, Benjamin Wallfisch used a CS-80 and Hans Zimmer used Zebra patches to mimic the CS-80. Zebra is all over that soundtrack. It's his favorite synth--you can hear patches from several films in ZebraHZ.

Urs said this on GS: "From what I have heard, there's a bit of CS-80 here and there, sure. Talking about the CS-80 and Vangelis is naturally more interesting than talking about a softsynth Vangelis hasn't ever heard of. Maybe it's like an orchestra, where the solo violin is the centerpiece and The orchestra is something else. Because pretty much all of the score is Zebra2, often even the lead sounds when you'd think it's the CS-80. I am lucky enough to have a folder full of all those sounds which unfortunately I can not share. They're amazing."

I honestly have no idea why you’re so hell bent on convincing everyone that aliasing in an analog emulation is fine. I literally use Mr. Alias Pro, and the aforementioned Prophet 12 with its bit depth and rate effects, so I have no problems using it for artistic reasons, but if you are going to make an emulation of something that doesn’t naturally alias, it just plain and simply does not belong there. Arturia doesn’t feel that it belongs there. Or why would they have worked hard to release a new version?

Because it is fine. It won't matter to your music. When a new version comes out with new features like MPE support, an improved model, and reduced aliasing, that's great. But the old versions served everyone fine too.

When a new version of an emulation comes out, forum posters who never used the original synth will say the new release sounds authentic and that previous emulations sounded "nothing like" the original. Newer = better. Then a new release comes out from another company, and it starts all over again.

Also, every new release is more "3D." They love that word.

So, maybe Mr. Zimmer will sell his CS-80 now that Arturia and Cherry Audio have released better models. Maybe not. I really don’t care, but if you think you’re going to win the argument that analog emulations should have aliasing in them, you’re going to lose.

I wouldn't lose an argument I didn't make. Besides, Hans Zimmer already sold his GX-1 over a decade ago when Arturia released CS-80 V. One of those old versions with cooties.

[bonch]

Even more pathetic is this odd attitude that if something is good enough for you, everyone should be happy with it. With this attitude, we’d have never come out of caves. I can’t quite imagine the person’s brain who is presented with an improved instrument and says, “no thanks.”

Hans, you cave-dweller, what's wrong with your brain? If only you had read aliasing threads on KVR, you'd abandon your primitive tools and finally be able to make music.

[T-CM11]

Hans, you cave-dweller, what's wrong with your brain? If only you had read aliasing threads on KVR, you'd abandon your primitive tools and finally be able to make music.

Nobody's claiming that they can't make ("good" or not) music with even the crappiest of plugins. You could use a Debating For Dummies book.

[bonch]

Hans, you cave-dweller, what's wrong with your brain? If only you had read aliasing threads on KVR, you'd abandon your primitive tools and finally be able to make music.

Nobody's claiming that they can't make ("good" or not) music with even the crappiest of plugins. You could use a Debating For Dummies book.

People did claim that. These old "piece of crap tools" are supposedly making your tracks "harsh and sour," contributing to a "crappy sounding mix," wasting hours of people's time and making them curse, holding back progress, and so on. It was even claimed Hans Zimmer abandoned Zebra in favor of a hardware CS-80 for Blade Runner, which is false (you can actually recognize stock ZebraHZ presets in the soundtrack).

I've been told my hearing is damaged, something is wrong with my brain, my attitude is pathetic, I'm a dummy--all these personal insults because I pointed out that the cooties in older softsynths aren't going to noticeably impact your music in practice. The resistance to this is interesting but not surprising.

[mixtur.se]

Reality check time. You will only hear aliasing if you're really looking for it in isolation.

But if you isolate any track from a song, you'll hear all kinds of garbage: Amplifier noise. Mic handling noise. Fan noise. Air conditioners. Digital Quantization. Noise gate flitter. Coughs, chair squeaks, talking, and all manner of background noise.

And yet, anything that isn't the loudest thing gets completely lost in the mix.
-60dB aliasing is the least of your worries.
So what are we really talking about here?

Not every mix is a full blown production. Consider an acoustic track or a jazz trio. There are people who care about these things, maybe you’re not one of them.

[kevinsparks]

Aliasing is just a new kind of analog so you should get on board

[zerocrossing]

It won't matter to your music.

No, it won’t matter to your music. If you listen (which I doubt you do) it can make some things sound really bad, and even a little can start adding up in a track. I’m just going to go ahead and put you on ignore, because someone who can’t hear how aliasing can make a rich pad sound kind of sour, obviously can’t possibly contribute anything of value. It’s like asking a person who thinks Twinkies are the best pastry ever made what they think about a croissant from a high end French bakery. It wouldn’t have enough hydrogenated vegetable oil in it for you.

[Igro]

Arturia reverb has aliasing. Good that i didn't make a blind buy.

[bonch]

It won't matter to your music.

No, it won’t matter to your music. If you listen (which I doubt you do) it can make some things sound really bad, and even a little can start adding up in a track. I’m just going to go ahead and put you on ignore, because someone who can’t hear how aliasing can make a rich pad sound kind of sour, obviously can’t possibly contribute anything of value. It’s like asking a person who thinks Twinkies are the best pastry ever made what they think about a croissant from a high end French bakery. It wouldn’t have enough hydrogenated vegetable oil in it for you.

I'm taking your ignore as fleeing the discussion. I'm skeptical you've done a blind test to determine that it's souring your music to a degree that anyone would notice or care about, and I also suspect you're a troll--you implied here that Hans Zimmer abandoned Zebra in favor of a CS-80 for the Blade Runner soundtrack, but you already knew that was false because you replied to Urs' post on GS where he said practically the whole soundtrack was Zebra 2, that icky synth from over 10 years ago that doesn't have oversampling options.

[billcarroll]

Maybe I'm missing something. Didn't a number of the original synths modeled by Arturia have audible aliasing?

[bonch]

Well, Arturia has always touted TAE as reducing or eliminating aliasing, but we're told by forum posters that they've been souring everyone's music since day one. Somehow, Arturia survived regardless, and people made music anyway. The great mystery.

[vurt]

Well, Arturia has always touted TAE as reducing or eliminating aliasing, but we're told by forum posters that they've been souring everyone's music since day one. Somehow, Arturia survived regardless, and people made music anyway. The great mystery.

not that big a mystery, eq.
and avoiding going too far up the octaves, not using them as much for upfront and centre sounds.

bringing zebra in to the argument is irrelevant as it doesn't emulate an analogue synth. so different criteria for judgement.

it's fair to say, while the early arturia stuff was usable for certain sounds, it took a bit of work to fit in to a mix.
the newer stuff, needs less massaging to achieve the same.
this is why arturia themselves didn't just settle for the old models.

[bonch]

Ah, so that's how people are going to rationalize the current day use of older synths like Zebra: "Aliasing only matters when it's an emulation of an analog synth."

Hans, you fool. You should've read KVR before selling your GX-1 when CS-80 V came out.