12 bit sampler that doesn't cost thousands?

[Alyctro]

The thing is i'm working on a few projects that have the 90's games crunch. Yes, a lot of those samples are already 16bit in most rompler synths. And i even tried emulating it with plugins, i tried shrinking my audio the way it was shrunk back in the day due to the constraints at the time. But it's still missing something. The sound feels much duller yet still lively at the same time. And no, i don't want to bitcrush the sound, i'm not making chiptune music. I'm just trying to make it more crunchy and i figured that the sounds need to be driven through a sampler such as the EMU2 or AkaiXL, whatever i know they're expensive but you get my point. But i couldn't find any. I come from Europe so i don't want to pay another hundred for shipping. There's nothing on the local market. The only site i found that seems to sell used samplers is reverb but the prices there are way over my budget. I was thinking of something between 200 to 400€ tops. I don't care about time stretching and most commonly used features. I just want something to drive the sound through, and then output the file as a 12bit audio file, maybe even 16. I know about VAGedit.
I'm open to alternative solutions too.
EXAMPLE 1#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1N-XY ... 6E&index=8
EXAMPLE 2#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjyxJh ... cD&index=5
EXAMPLE 3#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXpI1B ... 7w&index=5
EXAMPLE 4#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJi73_m ... 11&index=5
Some are clearer than others. The cut at 20khz is obvious, but even vst's could replicate.
Some have a larger smoother cut. When i looked at the original songs with an EQ analyzer i saw that the whole spectrum is filled with sound, only that the peaks are sharper which indicates Bitrate below 16bits, hence why i inquired about a 12bit sampler. The random cuts at 20khz can be explained by a lower samplerate. Replicating that with vst's didn't make the sound duller or crispier. It only cuts off the high end. I got plenty of the original synths that these songs were made with, even a few sample cd's. But directly recording it doesn't degrade the quality at all.

[fmr]

Have you tried TAL Sampler? It emulates old DACs, like the E-Mu II.

And Arturia has even an emulation of the Emulator II. And besides emulating the old DAC, I think it can even load 12-bit samples (never tried, because I'm not interested in downgrading the sampel quality, but you van download a demo and try for yourself, if you have 12-bit samples).

[Stefken]

I would advise decimort2 from d16 which works really nicely (50 bucks plugin). It has a preset for the Emu II. It adds crunch very nicely imo but can also add other nice flavors. It is a bitcrusher on paper but it s really a lot more than that. One of my favorite plugins.

[planetearth]

The thing is i'm working on a few projects that have the 90's games crunch. Yes, a lot of those samples are already 16bit in most rompler synths. And i even tried emulating it with plugins, i tried shrinking my audio the way it was shrunk back in the day due to the constraints at the time. But it's still missing something. The sound feels much duller yet still lively at the same time. And no, i don't want to bitcrush the sound, i'm not making chiptune music. I'm just trying to make it more crunchy and i figured that the sounds need to be driven through a sampler such as the EMU2 or AkaiXL, whatever i know they're expensive but you get my point. But i couldn't find any. I come from Europe so i don't want to pay another hundred for shipping. There's nothing on the local market. The only site i found that seems to sell used samplers is reverb but the prices there are way over my budget. I was thinking of something between 200 to 400€ tops. I don't care about time stretching and most commonly used features. I just want something to drive the sound through, and then output the file as a 12bit audio file, maybe even 16. I know about VAGedit.
I'm open to alternative solutions too.
EXAMPLE 1#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1N-XY ... 6E&index=8
EXAMPLE 2#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjyxJh ... cD&index=5
EXAMPLE 3#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXpI1B ... 7w&index=5
EXAMPLE 4#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJi73_m ... 11&index=5
Some are clearer than others. The cut at 20khz is obvious, but even vst's could replicate.
Some have a larger smoother cut. When i looked at the original songs with an EQ analyzer i saw that the whole spectrum is filled with sound, only that the peaks are sharper which indicates Bitrate below 16bits, hence why i inquired about a 12bit sampler. The random cuts at 20khz can be explained by a lower samplerate. Replicating that with vst's didn't make the sound duller or crispier. It only cuts off the high end. I got plenty of the original synths that these songs were made with, even a few sample cd's. But directly recording it doesn't degrade the quality at all.

It might help to know what you mean by "90's games crunch". For example, which game(s) or console(s) are you referring to? There are very accurate emulations of most of the game console FM chips, if you want to look into those. And if the original games and/or consoles output 12-bit (or less) audio, these emulators should, too. (I've read about them, but haven't looked into them, because they're not my thing.) Some of these emulations are free, and some even emulate the limitations of the FM synths and amplifiers from the consoles, from what I've read.

You might also want to keep in mind that any "16-bit" samples of the outputs of an actual game console still technically contain 12-bit/32 kHz audio (or whatever audio the game consoles sent out). Sampling a 12- or 8-bit audio file at 16-bits doesn't make the sound any "better", "clearer", "crisper" or anything...just bigger (as in data).

Steve

[Lotuz2019]

Hardware 12 bit samplers have become expensive. Therefore I too recommend an advanced bitcrusher plugin like Decimort 2, TAL-DAC or BitJuggler.

I would advise decimort2 from d16 which works really nicely (50 bucks plugin).

People usually sell it for around EUR 25 here at KVR Sell & Buy or at Knobcloud.

[anotherscott]

In terms of hardware, Korg DSS-1 and DSM-1 are other 12-bit samplers.

[Alyctro]

Have you tried TAL Sampler? It emulates old DACs, like the E-Mu II.

And Arturia has even an emulation of the Emulator II. And besides emulating the old DAC, I think it can even load 12-bit samples (never tried, because I'm not interested in downgrading the sampel quality, but you van download a demo and try for yourself, if you have 12-bit samples).

Yes i tried, Arturia is hard to understand. And it didn't seem to do anything to the sample at all.
Tal sampler was decent, i loved the included dac. But It does about the same thing as a colection of bitcrushers. Aside, from the cyclic stretching i liked that.

[Alyctro]

I would advise decimort2 from d16 which works really nicely (50 bucks plugin). It has a preset for the Emu II. It adds crunch very nicely imo but can also add other nice flavors. It is a bitcrusher on paper but it s really a lot more than that. One of my favorite plugins.

At first i was offput that it was suggested a lot. I already had it. And i found the sp1200 preset.
Seems to do nothing on first sight. But then i came across the semitone trick. And that seems to get me very close. What's the emu preset called?

[Alyctro]

The thing is i'm working on a few projects that have the 90's games crunch. Yes, a lot of those samples are already 16bit in most rompler synths. And i even tried emulating it with plugins, i tried shrinking my audio the way it was shrunk back in the day due to the constraints at the time. But it's still missing something. The sound feels much duller yet still lively at the same time. And no, i don't want to bitcrush the sound, i'm not making chiptune music. I'm just trying to make it more crunchy and i figured that the sounds need to be driven through a sampler such as the EMU2 or AkaiXL, whatever i know they're expensive but you get my point. But i couldn't find any. I come from Europe so i don't want to pay another hundred for shipping. There's nothing on the local market. The only site i found that seems to sell used samplers is reverb but the prices there are way over my budget. I was thinking of something between 200 to 400€ tops. I don't care about time stretching and most commonly used features. I just want something to drive the sound through, and then output the file as a 12bit audio file, maybe even 16. I know about VAGedit.
I'm open to alternative solutions too.
EXAMPLE 1#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1N-XY ... 6E&index=8
EXAMPLE 2#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjyxJh ... cD&index=5
EXAMPLE 3#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXpI1B ... 7w&index=5
EXAMPLE 4#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJi73_m ... 11&index=5
Some are clearer than others. The cut at 20khz is obvious, but even vst's could replicate.
Some have a larger smoother cut. When i looked at the original songs with an EQ analyzer i saw that the whole spectrum is filled with sound, only that the peaks are sharper which indicates Bitrate below 16bits, hence why i inquired about a 12bit sampler. The random cuts at 20khz can be explained by a lower samplerate. Replicating that with vst's didn't make the sound duller or crispier. It only cuts off the high end. I got plenty of the original synths that these songs were made with, even a few sample cd's. But directly recording it doesn't degrade the quality at all.

It might help to know what you mean by "90's games crunch". For example, which game(s) or console(s) are you referring to? There are very accurate emulations of most of the game console FM chips, if you want to look into those. And if the original games and/or consoles output 12-bit (or less) audio, these emulators should, too. (I've read about them, but haven't looked into them, because they're not my thing.) Some of these emulations are free, and some even emulate the limitations of the FM synths and amplifiers from the consoles, from what I've read.

You might also want to keep in mind that any "16-bit" samples of the outputs of an actual game console still technically contain 12-bit/32 kHz audio (or whatever audio the game consoles sent out). Sampling a 12- or 8-bit audio file at 16-bits doesn't make the sound any "better", "clearer", "crisper" or anything...just bigger (as in data).

Steve

Generally, the PS1. I don't care much for the type of synthesis. I could also pick Zoo Tycoon on pc.
I don't aim to make chiptune music, that's another story. I thought the songs would provide a good example.

About the crunch, let's say Tekken 3 for example on the PS1. It has a lot of Zero-G breakbeats.
I have two packs, and whilst i didn't find the exact one they are similar. The difference is, they arent that crisp as used in the soundtracks. It's distorted but in a pleasant way, not as when you'd slapa bitcrusher on it and call it a day.

[Alyctro]

In terms of hardware, Korg DSS-1 and DSM-1 are other 12-bit samplers.

Didn't find a DSM-1 but the other one i did. And oof, that's steep.

[anotherscott]

Yeah, I have no idea what they go for, much less what they may go for in different parts of the world... but I figured it was at least worth a mention in case you came across a deal on one...

[planetearth]

The thing is i'm working on a few projects that have the 90's games crunch. Yes, a lot of those samples are already 16bit in most rompler synths. And i even tried emulating it with plugins, i tried shrinking my audio the way it was shrunk back in the day due to the constraints at the time. But it's still missing something. The sound feels much duller yet still lively at the same time. And no, i don't want to bitcrush the sound, i'm not making chiptune music. I'm just trying to make it more crunchy and i figured that the sounds need to be driven through a sampler such as the EMU2 or AkaiXL, whatever i know they're expensive but you get my point. But i couldn't find any. I come from Europe so i don't want to pay another hundred for shipping. There's nothing on the local market. The only site i found that seems to sell used samplers is reverb but the prices there are way over my budget. I was thinking of something between 200 to 400€ tops. I don't care about time stretching and most commonly used features. I just want something to drive the sound through, and then output the file as a 12bit audio file, maybe even 16. I know about VAGedit.
I'm open to alternative solutions too.
EXAMPLE 1#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1N-XY ... 6E&index=8
EXAMPLE 2#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjyxJh ... cD&index=5
EXAMPLE 3#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXpI1B ... 7w&index=5
EXAMPLE 4#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJi73_m ... 11&index=5
Some are clearer than others. The cut at 20khz is obvious, but even vst's could replicate.
Some have a larger smoother cut. When i looked at the original songs with an EQ analyzer i saw that the whole spectrum is filled with sound, only that the peaks are sharper which indicates Bitrate below 16bits, hence why i inquired about a 12bit sampler. The random cuts at 20khz can be explained by a lower samplerate. Replicating that with vst's didn't make the sound duller or crispier. It only cuts off the high end. I got plenty of the original synths that these songs were made with, even a few sample cd's. But directly recording it doesn't degrade the quality at all.

It might help to know what you mean by "90's games crunch". For example, which game(s) or console(s) are you referring to? There are very accurate emulations of most of the game console FM chips, if you want to look into those. And if the original games and/or consoles output 12-bit (or less) audio, these emulators should, too. (I've read about them, but haven't looked into them, because they're not my thing.) Some of these emulations are free, and some even emulate the limitations of the FM synths and amplifiers from the consoles, from what I've read.

You might also want to keep in mind that any "16-bit" samples of the outputs of an actual game console still technically contain 12-bit/32 kHz audio (or whatever audio the game consoles sent out). Sampling a 12- or 8-bit audio file at 16-bits doesn't make the sound any "better", "clearer", "crisper" or anything...just bigger (as in data).

Steve

Generally, the PS1. I don't care much for the type of synthesis. I could also pick Zoo Tycoon on pc.
I don't aim to make chiptune music, that's another story. I thought the songs would provide a good example.

About the crunch, let's say Tekken 3 for example on the PS1. It has a lot of Zero-G breakbeats.
I have two packs, and whilst i didn't find the exact one they are similar. The difference is, they arent that crisp as used in the soundtracks. It's distorted but in a pleasant way, not as when you'd slapa bitcrusher on it and call it a day.

Ah, OK, so you're working with samples of breakbeats on the PS1 (in this example), and not console-generated sounds? Well, the PS1 supports 16/44.1 audio (as did many PC games if you had a 16-bit soundcard). If you're comparing what you hear in the "packs" of the Zero-G beats you have (assuming they're on CD) to the output of an actual PS1 that's going through the same system as your Zero-G beats, it's difficult to say why they don't sound the same. I doubt Sony would have been able to do much with the limited on-board pitch-shifting or envelope effects of the PS1 -- or that they would have even wanted to. I assume they would have wanted the audio to sound as good as possible. It could be that they processed the audio before putting it into the game, to reduce the amount of data it would otherwise take up in the pipeline. But I'm not sure re-sampling the CD-ROM audio at 12-bits will get you there.

Have you tried to add a bit of harmonic distortion to what you hear on the CD-ROMs? Something like the Aphex Aural Exciter (or anything that actually generates new high-frequency content, and isn't just an EQ) might add some "crispness" and the "pleasant distortion" you might be looking for.

Steve

[Alyctro]

Yeah, I have no idea what they go for, much less what they may go for in different parts of the world... but I figured it was at least worth a mention in case you came across a deal on one...

No worries! I have heard about them before so you're making sense.

[Alyctro]

The thing is i'm working on a few projects that have the 90's games crunch. Yes, a lot of those samples are already 16bit in most rompler synths. And i even tried emulating it with plugins, i tried shrinking my audio the way it was shrunk back in the day due to the constraints at the time. But it's still missing something. The sound feels much duller yet still lively at the same time. And no, i don't want to bitcrush the sound, i'm not making chiptune music. I'm just trying to make it more crunchy and i figured that the sounds need to be driven through a sampler such as the EMU2 or AkaiXL, whatever i know they're expensive but you get my point. But i couldn't find any. I come from Europe so i don't want to pay another hundred for shipping. There's nothing on the local market. The only site i found that seems to sell used samplers is reverb but the prices there are way over my budget. I was thinking of something between 200 to 400€ tops. I don't care about time stretching and most commonly used features. I just want something to drive the sound through, and then output the file as a 12bit audio file, maybe even 16. I know about VAGedit.
I'm open to alternative solutions too.
EXAMPLE 1#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1N-XY ... 6E&index=8
EXAMPLE 2#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjyxJh ... cD&index=5
EXAMPLE 3#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXpI1B ... 7w&index=5
EXAMPLE 4#
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJi73_m ... 11&index=5
Some are clearer than others. The cut at 20khz is obvious, but even vst's could replicate.
Some have a larger smoother cut. When i looked at the original songs with an EQ analyzer i saw that the whole spectrum is filled with sound, only that the peaks are sharper which indicates Bitrate below 16bits, hence why i inquired about a 12bit sampler. The random cuts at 20khz can be explained by a lower samplerate. Replicating that with vst's didn't make the sound duller or crispier. It only cuts off the high end. I got plenty of the original synths that these songs were made with, even a few sample cd's. But directly recording it doesn't degrade the quality at all.

It might help to know what you mean by "90's games crunch". For example, which game(s) or console(s) are you referring to? There are very accurate emulations of most of the game console FM chips, if you want to look into those. And if the original games and/or consoles output 12-bit (or less) audio, these emulators should, too. (I've read about them, but haven't looked into them, because they're not my thing.) Some of these emulations are free, and some even emulate the limitations of the FM synths and amplifiers from the consoles, from what I've read.

You might also want to keep in mind that any "16-bit" samples of the outputs of an actual game console still technically contain 12-bit/32 kHz audio (or whatever audio the game consoles sent out). Sampling a 12- or 8-bit audio file at 16-bits doesn't make the sound any "better", "clearer", "crisper" or anything...just bigger (as in data).

Steve

Generally, the PS1. I don't care much for the type of synthesis. I could also pick Zoo Tycoon on pc.
I don't aim to make chiptune music, that's another story. I thought the songs would provide a good example.

About the crunch, let's say Tekken 3 for example on the PS1. It has a lot of Zero-G breakbeats.
I have two packs, and whilst i didn't find the exact one they are similar. The difference is, they arent that crisp as used in the soundtracks. It's distorted but in a pleasant way, not as when you'd slapa bitcrusher on it and call it a day.

Ah, OK, so you're working with samples of breakbeats on the PS1 (in this example), and not console-generated sounds? Well, the PS1 supports 16/44.1 audio (as did many PC games if you had a 16-bit soundcard). If you're comparing what you hear in the "packs" of the Zero-G beats you have (assuming they're on CD) to the output of an actual PS1 that's going through the same system as your Zero-G beats, it's difficult to say why they don't sound the same. I doubt Sony would have been able to do much with the limited on-board pitch-shifting or envelope effects of the PS1 -- or that they would have even wanted to. I assume they would have wanted the audio to sound as good as possible. It could be that they processed the audio before putting it into the game, to reduce the amount of data it would otherwise take up in the pipeline. But I'm not sure re-sampling the CD-ROM audio at 12-bits will get you there.

Have you tried to add a bit of harmonic distortion to what you hear on the CD-ROMs? Something like the Aphex Aural Exciter (or anything that actually generates new high-frequency content, and isn't just an EQ) might add some "crispness" and the "pleasant distortion" you might be looking for.

Steve

Oh so that's what you meant. Yes i'm generating the sounds my self. I either record them or pick something off the CD. I heard that the ps1 can be used as a good dac for audiophiles so i doubt there's a difference if anything it would be better.

Because of what you said i might have realised something. But i'm not exactly sure if this is true or not. I know for a fact that youtube degrades audio quality. Add a codec on top of that, add the vag format from the rip, add the converter or whatever they used and that might be what i'm hearing in the final result. I'm heavily relying on my memory because i don't have a ps1 to test this with anymore, and i don't know if an emulator would suffice. Those can get finicky sometimes.

And also, i saw a video somewhere. Explaining what i already known from tracker music. That if you weren't using CD playback which the ps1 had. Then you wanted to conserve as much space as possible. So i bounced the track, pitched it up 5 semitones and ran it through the akai (i also tried an emu2 emulation), bounced it again and pitched it back down -5 semitones. And that my friend, i must say is very very close i think. It has that pleasant crunch for sure. And i think the rest is just processing. I didn't dare do this individually for the instruments that would be a hindrance and may produce unpleasant results. I'm unsure how much if at all the original composers processed the sounds "ia" the usual way reverb,eq,compression etc. I know the samplerate stays consistent thoughout the whole process which is 44100hz?

And yes i tried something similar to that vst, someone suggested a decimort. Not bad i must say.
I don't think there's much difference between the vst's, unless it's a straight lame bitcrusher fromi dunno 2008?

Here's the Results, no processing just rendered through.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/hidsvy9r ... t.rar/file

Notice the EMU is darker, i think that's the closest.
The sc added a lot of sparkle, must be my settings or i need to account for that in advance?

[planetearth]

Yes, YouTube degrades audio quality, based upon the original content, which formats it was converted from (and into), and what platform you're listening to it on. Add the fact that you're going based upon what you remember something sounding like, and all bets are off. At any rate, it sounds like you have a recipe to get closer to what you want.

What is the "SC1200.WAV" from? You mention an Akai in your post, but there was no Akai 1200. There was an Emulator SP1200, which, from what I've read, did some interesting stuff with pitch-shifting, considering it wasn't meant to do "high-quality" pitch-shifting.

Steve