Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

[zvenx]

Manuel's doppelganger?

rsp

[Frankie.T]

we plan to release in 3/4th qarter 2023 and do everything possible to realize this. And if not something odd happens, like corona, world financial crash or aliens, we will be able to do this.

Any chance for an user friendly copy protection such SN? That's the only things that keep me away from Avenger

[Kozmyk]

Is it possible to get the Drum Sequencer to continue playing even when a key is not being held down ?
Further to that, I notice that the Sustain/Hold Pedal will keep the ARP running but the Drums drop out when all the keys are released even though the Sustain/Hold Pedal is still depressed.

I notice from a forum search that I'm NOT the first to notice this omission ... people asking this since 2017

[LoveEnigma18]

Avenger is now rent-to-own via Plugin Boutique. £92.50, or £7.75 pm for 12 months.

https://www.pluginboutique.com/products/3201

Interesting. I wonder what would happen if V2 is out in the next few months while someone is on this V1 rent to own. I mean what are the upgrade options then.

Hi Manuel, is it possible to comment on this with some information?

[musikarldererste]

i ask them =

ther is a time period were an upgrade is free
but it doesnt clear when its released

so you have to buy an upgrade for avenger 2

[Chipi]

Code: Select all

who is "Miguel"?

[olepro]

Hi Manuel
Are there any plans to enhance the chorder/voice module, to make it free of aliasing.
It's rather bad as it is now... (or could it be a bug maybe)?
I can upload an example of the problem, unless it's something you guys are aware of and it's on purpose to save cpu when using the chorder module.

Ole

Regarding this topic, I have found out what is causing the low frequency noise.
It is not aliasing that is the problem.
It is the filter that produces these noises in the sound.
It seems that the NEX 24 filter is very quickly overridden by too strong oscillator volume input for example by adding two oscillators in the chorder module.
If I switch to the ANA 24 filter the sound is clean.

[Hanz Meyzer]

What's new in 1.86?

[SiriusVI]

Hey everyone,

I'm still very confused about the licence when it comes to using Avenger or sample packs for commercial releases. I've written a total of four emails over the course of four months to Vengeance support, but I haven't gotten a single reply as of yet.

I'm just going to copy the contents of the mail here and hope Manuel will reply or that maybe someone else can help me:

Hello Vengeance Team,

I bought the Avenger VST and I have a question regarding the license, because I release songs commercially on Spotify, Amazon and YouTube among other services.

In your terms of use it says:

"2 Under the Licence you may not and shall not, without Our express written authorization: [...] - commercially use any compositions, melodies, melody-loops, lyrics, and vocal-samples or parts hereof from any Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries. All rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by Us and are reserved."

Does this mean that if I buy the " Avenger Expansion pack: Vocal Trance", for example, I can't use the vocals in the expansion in my commercial releases? This is how I understand your terms of service, but it doesn't make sense to me, because if I cannot use the vocals in my commercial releases, what's the point in me buying / you selling a vocal expansion at all?

I'd appreciate it if you could clear this up for me.

Thank you, have a great day!

[twal]

Hey everyone,

I'm still very confused about the licence when it comes to using Avenger or sample packs for commercial releases. I've written a total of four emails over the course of four months to Vengeance support, but I haven't gotten a single reply as of yet.

I'm just going to copy the contents of the mail here and hope Manuel will reply or that maybe someone else can help me:

Hello Vengeance Team,

I bought the Avenger VST and I have a question regarding the license, because I release songs commercially on Spotify, Amazon and YouTube among other services.

In your terms of use it says:

"2 Under the Licence you may not and shall not, without Our express written authorization: [...] - commercially use any compositions, melodies, melody-loops, lyrics, and vocal-samples or parts hereof from any Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries. All rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by Us and are reserved."

Does this mean that if I buy the " Avenger Expansion pack: Vocal Trance", for example, I can't use the vocals in the expansion in my commercial releases? This is how I understand your terms of service, but it doesn't make sense to me, because if I cannot use the vocals in my commercial releases, what's the point in me buying / you selling a vocal expansion at all?

I'd appreciate it if you could clear this up for me.

Thank you, have a great day!

Of course listen in to what the team officially says, but I will give you my outlook and experience on the matter.

I would believe it to be similar to how most sample packs function, and specifically Splice is a good example of "Royalty Free" samples. They aren't really Royalty Free, in the sense that if they are objectively the sample you are using in your productions they can still be cited for copyright infringement. Especially vocals and loops where they are clearly distinguished as originating from the source and not your own design. The best thing to do is alter the vocals and loops so they are "different" than the original source. Of course it comes down to the seller and producer whether they decide to go after you or not for it, so it's a court of law ruling type of thing. Some producers make a name for themselves for using ALL samples from a sample pack but get not lash back because the originator let's go and doesn't initiate action. There is a video where Venus Theory talks about this exact thing happening with a well-known, established electronic music producer.
(Found the video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBECYh72oYU

I find interest in your inquiry as I just posted a track using a patch from an expansion in the other forum that uses one note to play an entire preset for two bars with some alteration (basically using the macros and buttons) and feel it would violate the terms if I marketed, which I am not because of this possible scrutiny.

My old publisher was pretty vehement about not using splice samples at one point, as copyrights became stricter. Like I said before, it comes down to whether the original creator wants to come after you and wants to spend the time to file an action against you, and how much of a different sound from the original you put into your tracks. I would say you should always distort and alter as much as you can on something that has samples/vocals/arrangementso forth and so on. Here in this song by Rae Sremmurd called Black Beatles, The producer used 'Secret Mission'- a preset from Dune 2. It is an arp, but no vocals and no additional instrumentation like a very complicated patch from an Avenger soundbank using bass, samples, vocals, drum sequence... They were not sued. Of course it is a different situation from what Avenger can create: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8m9zhNAgKs

More literature: https://www.billboard.com/music/music-n ... s-5944925/

[noiseboyuk]

"2 Under the Licence you may not and shall not, without Our express written authorization: [...] - commercially use any compositions, melodies, melody-loops, lyrics, and vocal-samples or parts hereof from any Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries. All rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by Us and are reserved."

I really hope this gets the reply it deserves, it is the thing I am most critical of Vengeance for. This a fundamental legal principle on how owners can use the product, and if feels very wrong that everyone has to interpret it by scanning through past forum posts by Manuel for the scraps of guidance that have been given. It feels like a conscious use of "legal constructive ambiguity", which is only constructive for the developer, and the source of a lot of concern for the user. As currently written by a strict interpretation, not even an ARP can be used commercially, and certainly not a melody in an SQ.

Please Manuel, make this clear and unambiguous, and put it somewhere can be easily found by all users.

[SiriusVI]

@twal
Thank you for your detailed reply. I have seen all of these videos and examples. I have done quite a bit of research and I also read through all of the relevant replies by Manuel in this thread (which were not satisfying enough).

I think I understand what the rules are and I also get the general problems. Samples normally are royalty free and can in principle be used by people who buy them in any release, commercial or otherwise. However, some producers seem to be lazy and just copy & paste the raw samples into their DAW and call it a day. If two producers end up with very similar songs, there might be legal issues. So as you said, "royalty free" should always be taken with a grain of salt.

However, the Vengeance license seems to be an entirely different beast. Normally, when I buy a vocal sample pack, it says that I am (in principle) allowed to use all the vocal samples unaltered in my commercial projects. So far so good. Now, since I am not a lazy producer, I would never just use a sequence of unaltered vocal hooks to fill an entire song, but maybe I like a particular melodic phrase and I want to use it at a specific point in my song. I believe that with most vocal sample packs, I have the right to do so without any legal issues.

The Vengeance license however forbids me to use ANY vocals, even if I alter them, because per the license, I am not allowed to use any samples that contain ! lyrics !. And this is what confuses me. They sell an expansion for Avenger that is called “Vocal Trance”. This (and some other expansions and sample packs they sell) product’s whole selling point is that there are vocals in it. I’m buying the sample pack specifically for the vocals … But I am not allowed to use any of them? Why should anyone buy an expansion like this?

I kind of understand Manuel’s position from his past posts. He says that whole compositions and melodies cannot be used. Fair enough, that still leaves a lot of usable presets in many sample packs. But why should anyone buy a vocal expansion or a vocal sample pack when vocals and lyrics of any kind can NEVER be used in commercial releases? I just don’t get it.

[twal]

@twal
Thank you for your detailed reply. I have seen all of these videos and examples. I have done quite a bit of research and I also read through all of the relevant replies by Manuel in this thread (which were not satisfying enough).

I think I understand what the rules are and I also get the general problems. Samples normally are royalty free and can in principle be used by people who buy them in any release, commercial or otherwise. However, some producers seem to be lazy and just copy & paste the raw samples into their DAW and call it a day. If two producers end up with very similar songs, there might be legal issues. So as you said, "royalty free" should always be taken with a grain of salt.

However, the Vengeance license seems to be an entirely different beast. Normally, when I buy a vocal sample pack, it says that I am (in principle) allowed to use all the vocal samples unaltered in my commercial projects. So far so good. Now, since I am not a lazy producer, I would never just use a sequence of unaltered vocal hooks to fill an entire song, but maybe I like a particular melodic phrase and I want to use it at a specific point in my song. I believe that with most vocal sample packs, I have the right to do so without any legal issues.

The Vengeance license however forbids me to use ANY vocals, even if I alter them, because per the license, I am not allowed to use any samples that contain ! lyrics !. And this is what confuses me. They sell an expansion for Avenger that is called “Vocal Trance”. This (and some other expansions and sample packs they sell) product’s whole selling point is that there are vocals in it. I’m buying the sample pack specifically for the vocals … But I am not allowed to use any of them? Why should anyone buy an expansion like this?

I kind of understand Manuel’s position from his past posts. He says that whole compositions and melodies cannot be used. Fair enough, that still leaves a lot of usable presets in many sample packs. But why should anyone buy a vocal expansion or a vocal sample pack when vocals and lyrics of any kind can NEVER be used in commercial releases? I just don’t get it.

Yeah it's difficult to gauge, even for industry professionals that run businesses that do placements and sync. I think for the most part, it comes down to something like holding a key down and throwing drums over it and making a hit (a la Dune 2) with an Expansion, without separating the parts out enough, or distorting it somehow that would constitute copyright infringement or whatever you want to call it. In the case of Avenger presets, they are almost entire ensembles themselves (Bass, Keys, Pads, Drums, so forth and so on) as opposed to an arp in Dune where it is just layers of synth rhythms to create one (cinematic-like) sound, and what not.

In the case of vocal phrases, I think even those from Splice or other subscription services are by nature up to the original creators if they want to come after you. Artist's essentially lease them to Splice, for a cut and Splice just collects money and doesn't care much about what happens (to my knowledge). Many of these creators of sample packs don't care, but if you take something blatantly and make massive hit off it, I bet a lot of them would try to get a piece of the pie. I wouldn't worry about it too much, not even major producers care and use samples that make millions- some of the original creators come forth and win or lose lawsuits. If you make a massive hit with Avenger presets (Using the full on complete song-sounding ones with no variation), you may end up having to pay, but practically nobody would do that. Now if you take pieces I don't think it's that big of deal, and again, if you make a hit you can just pay the price. If your song makes 0 noise, nobody will come after you. Of course you want, and we all want the official statement from the devs. This is all imho. I'm not a lawyer or financial advisor. What I've said is not to disparage VPS, it's something they got to do because of how sophisticated their presets are.

[SiriusVI]

I absolutely understand that using samples is a bit of a grey area. However, when buying vocal sample packs, the licenses almost always state that I can use any sample as is in commercial releases. I think that even if legal action were taken, I would be in the right to use these samples.

Having said that, I don't really care about what would happen if I theoretically made a hit and I don't want to argue how unlikely it is that somebody would take legal action in the first place.

I just want to know that if I legally buy a vocal sample pack / if I buy the Avenger Vocal Trance Expansion, am I then allowed to use these vocals (melodies or lyrics) in my commercial releases, yes or no.

If this is forbidden in general, then I would never buy this type of vocal expansion, no matter how good the vocals are, because I don't want to pay for something I am not allowed to use, not even in principle, if you get what I mean. Sure, in practice nothing will ever happen, because I will never produce a hit song that Vengeance would like to receive royalties for. But again, this is not the issue here.

EDIT: And again I get that if you buy a "normal" expansion for Avenger, you should not use whole compositions with pads, drums, keys, arps, and leads. But if you specifically buy a "VOCAL EXPANSION" and can't use the VOCALS, this is where you lose me.

EDIT 2: Another piece of information to clarify why I am so critical here: I produce remixes of original songs for bands and when delivering my final products, I want my clients to be 100% sure that I didn't use any samples that are not royalty free. So I have also a responsibility towards my clients as well.

[Jac459]

I absolutely understand that using samples is a bit of a grey area. However, when buying vocal sample packs, the licenses almost always state that I can use any sample as is in commercial releases. I think that even if legal action were taken, I would be in the right to use these samples.

Having said that, I don't really care about what would happen if I theoretically made a hit and I don't want to argue how unlikely it is that somebody would take legal action in the first place.

I just want to know that if I legally buy a vocal sample pack / if I buy the Avenger Vocal Trance Expansion, am I then allowed to use these vocals (melodies or lyrics) in my commercial releases, yes or no.

If this is forbidden in general, then I would never buy this type of vocal expansion, no matter how good the vocals are, because I don't want to pay for something I am not allowed to use, not even in principle, if you get what I mean. Sure, in practice nothing will ever happen, because I will never produce a hit song that Vengeance would like to receive royalties for. But again, this is not the issue here.

EDIT: And again I get that if you buy a "normal" expansion for Avenger, you should not use whole compositions with pads, drums, keys, arps, and leads. But if you specifically buy a "VOCAL EXPANSION" and can't use the VOCALS, this is where you lose me.

EDIT 2: Another piece of information to clarify why I am so critical here: I produce remixes of original songs for bands and when delivering my final products, I want my clients to be 100% sure that I didn't use any samples that are not royalty free. So I have also a responsibility towards my clients as well.

I am with you on that, exactly for the reasons you explained. The idea of buying vocals or the guitar extensions or whatever without being authorised to use them is a bit weird to me.
If you use a full loop only, of course it is not even doing music, but if youuse a vocal in a song it should be authorised....