Waveform 12 - Two Problems: Audio, and messed up results from drum track

[Peter Widdicombe]

By "synchronized" do you mean they can both play at 180 or both at 240; or they run simultaneously at different speeds and periodically align with each other... Or that one starts at 180, then switches (or gradually speeds up) and the second one kicks in and you end at 240 ?

[pough]

As I think through this, I'm struggling to understand how the DAW could have assigned instruments that can be interpreted by the Yamaha when loaded, but that the instruments that clearly are shown in the uploaded Yamaha midis into the DAW cannot be interpreted by the DAW.

It's because MIDI is old. You're looking at the DAW and thinking that's it's limited because it doesn't automatically load up what's in the MIDI file. The truth is that MIDI is limited and no modern DAW wants to be limited in the same way. MIDI has a limit of 16 tracks, the 10th of which is always and only drums. It has 128 presets, all of which are pre-determined.

Your DAW has unlimited tracks, any number of which could be drums. The instruments presets are only limited by what you have installed. Some plugins have thousands of presets.

DAWs tend to include as much MIDI as is necessary, things like note pitch and velocity and duration. It will pass along CC data, including Program Change but it's up to the plugin to interpret the data, and very few pay attention to Program Change. What would it mean to a plugin like Blue3, a virtual Hammond Organ, if it was told to load the piano preset? What should the DAW do to load a piano when all you have is piano sample libraries, information external to any plugin that might load them?

[jabe]

If you're in the UK, get hold of a copy of Computer Music* magazine. It will allow you to download their monthly selection of plug-ins. This will include around 80 plug-ins, split between plug-in instruments and plug-in effects. This link will give you a list of recent plug-ins included (https://www.musicradar.com/computermusi ... cts-571808).

* it might be available in other countries.

[Watchful]

You guys are great.

I hope I'm not making you guys go nuts.

Not at all. What we want is to see you up and running...and producing good music way beyond what you thought was possible!

[56Kruiser]

But, the midi from the Yamaha has info about what instruments were assigned to the track based on capturing the information as the song is played, no? And in fact each track I loaded from the Yamaha midi file is named for the instrument that I used to capture the data.

Not at all. It will capture what *channel* each note was played on. But typically MIDI doesn't record the program or preset that was assigned to it.
...

My reference to the midi knowing which instrument was based on the picture included in my post. It shows what instrument was used in the track name (I presume its a name).

As I learn more, and form more assumptions ...It's beginning to feel like introducing a DAW into the scheme of "improving" the songs I'm playing is not going to work. If I can't be sure that after editing the instruments I used will be the same when I pull the joined 2 midis, then no, it's not going to work for me. That's not to say I am dumping the DAW, but maybe for this particular project.

By "synchronized" do you mean they can both play at 180 or both at 240; or they run simultaneously at different speeds and periodically align with each other... Or that one starts at 180, then switches (or gradually speeds up) and the second one kicks in and you end at 240 ?

Both play at 180 or 140... or at 60 for that matter. I was surprised when I saw that the keyboard does that. So, I can play each track at any speed I want to...as long as I play the music at that speed when I'm recording it AND set the tempo selection on the keyboard (metronome) at the same speed. So, it sounds correct at any speed I want to play it. As opposed, for example, recording a video of playing the song, then plalying the video at a different speed, it's all screwed up.

One outcome of that is whatever tempo used for that last track recorded will be the tempo used for the song when I play it. Now if that tempo is wrong for the song, I can just set the tempo on the metronome setting, and its all ok.

It's because MIDI is old. You're looking at the DAW and thinking that's it's limited because it doesn't automatically load up what's in the MIDI file. The truth is that MIDI is limited ...

No sir, I'm not thinking it is limited. I'm just coming to the conclusing it does not do what I was attempting to do.

Folks, you are giving me great information, and I'm going to keep at it for a while. In the end, my goal is to do any necessary enhancements to songs I play on the Yamaha, and I'll be exploring that thought process.

By the way, I am using the various tracks in the Yamaha to create accompaniment for whatever song I am playing. The accompaniment is what I'm anticipating improving in the DAW, then bring it back into the Yamaha. Maybe the DAW is not really expected to be used that way.

[56Kruiser]

I just assigned instruments to all of the tracks, similar to what I used. Piano for Elec piano, etc.

I loaded it up, and It's not as off as I feared. I have 2-3 tracks that need to have the volume reduced. I tried lowering the volume at that volume and pan plugin, and also tried lowering gain. I'm not getting a volume reduction.

This may work out for me after all. I'll spend some time listening to individual tracks and compare sone to orig and Dawed. (Making up new words )

I may be done for today.

Thanks again everyone

[Watchful]

Regarding the volume, there are two things to consider:

1. Are you listening to audio through the DAW? If so, the volume and pan plug in will let you raise or lower the output level of each track individually.

2. Are you listening to playback on your Yamaha? If so, the volume and pan plugin has NO EFFECT on your Yamaha: you need to control each part's output level on the Yamaha, because that's what you're hearing. MIDI is telling the Yamaha what to play, but isn't producing audio itself.

What is producing the tones you hear?

Gain is used for the INPUT level; volume is the OUTPUT level. Turning down gain won't help you unless you're recording audio right in from the Yamaha, a microphone, or another instrument connected into your computer.

[Watchful]

As I noted earlier, my 'project goals' were what I thought was simple: take 2 midi 5 track midis from the Yamaha via a midi save then load to the DAW. Then save them out to 1 midi 10 track file. Then let the Yamaha import the 1 midi file to 1 file on the Yamaha to play.

I want to talk about this for a bit.

Here's what I would do:

1. Copy the first MIDI file to the computer (Yamaha sometimes has a "connect" plugin that makes this easy, but not sure if your keyboard does).
2. Copy the second MIDI file to the computer.
3. Open Waveform, and set the project BPM to the desired value.
4. Drag the first file into the track area; this will ask me if I want to separate all the original tracks into new tracks in Waveform. Waveform will also ask if I want to change the BPM to match the MIDI file, or ignore that. IGNORE that: assume your setting in step 3 is correct.
5. Repeat step 4 for the second MIDI file.

At this point, I should have 10 tracks of MIDI.

If my goal was to orchestrate this from scratch, I need to assign a plugin to EACH of the ten tracks: a drum sound to the drum track, a bass sound to the bass track, a piano sound to the piano treble track, a piano sound to the piano bass track, etc. Note that Waveform will have NO IDEA what those tracks should be, even if you were able to name them in your DGX-600's sequencer. Oh, the import may retain the track name of "BASS GUITAR," but Waveform has no idea what that is since you can name it anything you want. You need to choose the appropriate instrument for each track.

If I press play, all ten tracks should be playing the piece accordingly. I can set volume levels on the volume/pan plug in and balance the audio levels to taste.

If my goal was to send this back to the Yamaha, lets' be certain the Yamaha can handle ten tracks simultaneously. Not all keyboards can: I'm not familiar with the DGX-660, but it certainly seems capable. I see that it can record up to 6 tracks, but it might be able to play back more than that via MIDI.

If so, you need to tell Waveform that the OUTPUT of those tracks will be the Yamaha At the far, far, far right of the track is a speaker icon. Click on this to change it--because the DGX-660 has a USB driver, it will probably say "DGX-660" or something similar.

Repeat this for the other nine tracks.

Now if you press play, all ten tracks will go to the DGX-660, but it will likely sound horrible.

You need to click on the imported clip on the first track to highlight it. In either the Actions menu (far left) or the Properties window (bottom window, but it's hidden by default) look for MIDI channel. Make sure this is 1.

Click on the imported clip in the second track...and change its channel to 2.

Repeat for all ten tracks. You want each track on a different MIDI channel, so that your DGX-660 can understand these are ten different instruments.

Now comes the hard part--you need to set up your DGX-660 to play the desired sound on each channel. I don't know how to do this on the DGX-660, as it's different on every Yamaha instrument. You might need to enter a "multi" mode first, or go through a combi set up. On my Montage, I need to go into Performance mode and assign each channel slot to a different part. The point is, you need to tell the DGX-660 that "Channel 1 is going to be THIS sound...and Channel 2 will be THAT sound." Repeat for all 10 channels.

Assuming the DGX-660 supports more than 6 playback channels, you should be able to hear each MIDI track play a different part on your keyboard. You will need to adjust the sound level for EACH program on your keyboard, because that's what's producing the sounds.

If you have either the first or second concepts working, you can evolve into hybrid modes--some parts are played by plugins, others by your Yamaha. Just execute the desired step for each of the two scenarios I listed above on a track-by-track basis.

I have a followup post, as this one is getting too long...

[Watchful]

Sorry about the length. I want to suggest a different way of thinking about your music; as a Yamaha owner for many years, I can assure you that Yamaha has a "different" way of thinking about it and it's...well, it's what it is.

Yamaha would prefer you to record MIDI into your DGX-660 and then export the tracks to your DAW, as you're doing.

I think a more useful mode is to throw out that idea and do what's best for the project. Here's some things I do:

1. I will use the Yamaha to record raw MIDI, and let Waveform produce the sound. In other words, I set the track's INPUT to the Yamaha, arm the track, and select an appropriate plugin for the sound--even if temporary. I then record the MIDI I want to hear, and Waveform produces the sound. I can then change the plugin to a better one, or I can leave it as is.

2. I will arm the track for audio recording, and record the Yamaha sound right into the track, live.

3. I can also record the MIDI from the Yamaha, get it where I want it, and then change the track's output to the Yamaha via MIDI, so that the Yamaha produces the sound--but then I will create a second track, change its AUDIO input to the Yamaha MIDI track, and record the audio from the Yamaha.

By the end of it, Waveform is controlling ALL my audio: either MIDI through a plugin, audio recorded in hot from the Yamaha, or audio bounced from the Yamaha's MIDI playback.

In other words, I don't use my Yamaha's sequencer AT ALL. It's way too limited compared to Waveform's countless level of tracks, superior audio control, ability to add, change, or insert effects in the chain to really improve the sound or mix, and basically create a mixable project over which I have total control.

I don't think Yamaha likes that, but they certainly let you do it. So if you've caught on to what I'm hinting at, I tend to use my Yamaha--with all 16 channels of playability--one track/one channel at a time.

Playing live is a totally different equation, where you will want a project to crank out multiple MIDI channels all at once so you have your accompaniment going at once--but it sounds like you're focusing on recording at this point.

[Watchful]

Sorry about the length. I want to suggest a different way of thinking about your music; as a Yamaha owner for many years, I can assure you that Yamaha has a "different" way of thinking about it and it's...well, it's what it is.

Yamaha would prefer you to record MIDI into your DGX-660 and then export the tracks to your DAW, as you're doing.

I think a more useful mode is to throw out that idea and do what's best for the project. Here's some things I do:

1. I will use the Yamaha to record raw MIDI, and let Waveform produce the sound. In other words, I set the track's INPUT to the Yamaha, arm the track, and select an appropriate plugin for the sound--even if temporary. I then record the MIDI I want to hear, and Waveform produces the sound. I can then change the plugin to a better one, or I can leave it as is. In other words, I press a key on the Yamaha, and Waveform produces the actual sound.

2. I will arm the track for audio recording, and record the Yamaha sound right into the track, live. In other words, I play the song, and Waveform records the audio, not the MIDI. Tough to edit later, so this is best for effects and parts you know really well!

3. I can also record the MIDI from the Yamaha, get it where I want it, and then change the track's output to the Yamaha via MIDI, so that the Yamaha produces the sound--but then I will create a second track, change its AUDIO input to the Yamaha MIDI track, and record the audio from the Yamaha. In other words, I record the MIDI like in option 1, but send it back later to the Yamaha...which I then record. Easy to edit later, but you need to re-record the track if you do.

By the end of it, Waveform is controlling ALL my audio: either MIDI through a plugin, audio recorded in hot from the Yamaha, or audio bounced from the Yamaha's MIDI playback.

In other words, I don't use my Yamaha's sequencer AT ALL. It's way too limited compared to Waveform's countless level of tracks, superior audio control, ability to add, change, or insert effects in the chain to really improve the sound or mix, and basically create a mixable project over which I have total control.

I don't think Yamaha likes that, but they certainly let you do it. So if you've caught on to what I'm hinting at, I tend to use my Yamaha--with all 16 channels of playability--one track/one channel at a time.

Playing live is a totally different equation, where you will want a project to crank out multiple MIDI channels all at once so you have your accompaniment going at once--but it sounds like you're focusing on recording at this point.

[56Kruiser]

Regarding the volume, there are two things to consider:

1. Are you listening to audio through the DAW? If so, the volume and pan plug in will let you raise or lower the output level of each track individually.

2. Are you listening to playback on your Yamaha? If so, the volume and pan plugin has NO EFFECT on your Yamaha: you need to control each part's output level on the Yamaha, because that's what you're hearing. MIDI is telling the Yamaha what to play, but isn't producing audio itself.

What is producing the tones you hear?

Gain is used for the INPUT level; volume is the OUTPUT level. Turning down gain won't help you unless you're recording audio right in from the Yamaha, a microphone, or another instrument connected into your computer.

Hmmm...ok. This is another strike against my intended use of a DAW. Again, I'm not wanting to say no to a DAW, but with my main focus improving what I play on the Yamaha, and this seemingly unable to put the guidance of the edits in the file in order for the instrument using it to see those changes...leaves another mark against me on it.

I notice a couple long posts, and I will get to them, but it'll likely be tomorrow.

I do have one question, which if it is answered in the longer posts, don't bother answering this: So I'm guessing that the goal of a DAW is to do all the management of the sounds, etc, and put that out to a wav or mp3 file...not to any instrments to have them play the song. Is that the case?'

[56Kruiser]

I had time to squeeze in a quick read of your post.

Just a quick response, no time for me to completely digest what you said, I likely will experiment with that. A couple notes:

It sounds like the resulting song, I presume midi, will ultimately be played...not on the Yamaha.

To expand on my goal: I want to create good accompaniments, which I would have on a song saved on the Yamaha, from which then I would personally play the melody along with the accompaniment. (I've used Yamaha's Styles some, but get more satisfaction from making my own). Frenkly, I don't anticipate playing for anyone live, but I do put them on Youtube, wiyh 2-3 different camera angles of my playing.

BTW, no need to apologize for the length of a comment. I am very appreciative of your taking the time to think through this and write up the input.

[56Kruiser]

So for now, I decided to go back to the most basic task of my goal, just bring int two (5 Trk), Render 1 (10 Trk). No edits, no worrying about listening.

It pretty much came out a garbled mess. Instruments were different, and sounded bad.

I so appreciate the effort everyone here as expended on helping me, and I feel guilty about now walking away. I will check back here to see if any other thoughts are posted.

Thanks again.

[Watchful]

If you're looking to create backup accompaniment for yourself, Waveform is certainly capable...especially if you DON'T want the Yamaha doing the accompaniment for you.

1. You need to create the backup parts (as you've been doing), and either (a) leave them on the Yamaha, (b) import them into Waveform, (c) create them from scratch in Waveform, or (d) all three.

If a), you're done--you don't need Waveform for that, obviously.

If b), You need to import them as I described above. But what do you want to do with them? That was a follow-up post of mine, where I give you options to assign them plugins to create sound, or send them back to the Yamaha.

If (c), this is an easy route. You can use your Yamaha to create the part via MIDI, and assign it a plugin, and play along with the result on your Yamaha.

If (d), you can combine any of these features as your imagination wants.

Which option are you interested in doing? (I hope it's d, as that gives the most flexibility)

[pough]

I so appreciate the effort everyone here as expended on helping me, and I feel guilty about now walking away.

It's always interesting coming across different concepts. DAWs seem to be designed to be endpoints, not the middle of a MIDI process, so it's not likely you're going to get exactly what you want. You might be able to get close if you use the right plugin. Roland makes a GM plugin (Sound Canvas VA) that might work okay, but you'd get much closer if you could get a Yamaha GM plugin. Apparently that did exist: https://www.kvraudio.com/product/s_yxg50_by_yamaha

There's just so little in the way of GM plugins.

Maybe something like MidiEditor (midieditor.org) is closer to what you need. I can't tell you much about it, as I have never used it. But it seems to be more along the lines of an old-school MIDI editor. I think you would need to set its output to your Yamaha, if that's possible. It doesn't seem to load plugins or include anything that turns MIDI into sound.