Vengeance Producer Suite - AVENGER - 1.8.5 the main thread

[SiriusVI]

I am with you on that, exactly for the reasons you explained. The idea of buying vocals or the guitar extensions or whatever without being authorised to use them is a bit weird to me.
If you use a full loop only, of course it is not even doing music, but if youuse a vocal in a song it should be authorised....

Exactly! I am not asking about using whole compositions. But almost all vocal hooks have lyrics (except for adlips and Ahhhhs, Ohhhhs, Uhhhhhs) and if I cannot use vocal phrases with lyrics, because lyrics in general are not cleared by the license agreement, I don't see the point in buying vocal expansion packs in the first place.

EDIT: let's just look at a very specific example:



Can I use the vocal phrase "Even when I'm dreaming" (only the vocals, not the whole composition!) in my commercial releases, yes or no?

[Jac459]

Exactly! I am not asking about using whole compositions. But almost all vocal hooks have lyrics (except for adlips and Ahhhhs, Ohhhhs, Uhhhhhs) and if I cannot use vocal phrases with lyrics, because lyrics in general are not cleared by the license agreement, I don't see the point in buying vocal expansion packs in the first place.

EDIT: let's just look at a very specific example:



Can I use the vocal phrase "Even when I'm dreaming" (only the vocals, not the whole composition!) in my commercial releases, yes or no?

I will be looking for the answer

[twal]

I absolutely understand that using samples is a bit of a grey area. However, when buying vocal sample packs, the licenses almost always state that I can use any sample as is in commercial releases. I think that even if legal action were taken, I would be in the right to use these samples.

Having said that, I don't really care about what would happen if I theoretically made a hit and I don't want to argue how unlikely it is that somebody would take legal action in the first place.

I just want to know that if I legally buy a vocal sample pack / if I buy the Avenger Vocal Trance Expansion, am I then allowed to use these vocals (melodies or lyrics) in my commercial releases, yes or no.

If this is forbidden in general, then I would never buy this type of vocal expansion, no matter how good the vocals are, because I don't want to pay for something I am not allowed to use, not even in principle, if you get what I mean. Sure, in practice nothing will ever happen, because I will never produce a hit song that Vengeance would like to receive royalties for. But again, this is not the issue here.

EDIT: And again I get that if you buy a "normal" expansion for Avenger, you should not use whole compositions with pads, drums, keys, arps, and leads. But if you specifically buy a "VOCAL EXPANSION" and can't use the VOCALS, this is where you lose me.

EDIT 2: Another piece of information to clarify why I am so critical here: I produce remixes of original songs for bands and when delivering my final products, I want my clients to be 100% sure that I didn't use any samples that are not royalty free. So I have also a responsibility towards my clients as well.

Ok, once you bring a third party in I see the scrutiny necessitated by your inquiry. Also, if you are simply looking for vocals there could be better options. Lots of very, very cheap vocal packs being sold on the usual discount websites frequently, I'm sure you have a list but if you need one let me know.

[noiseboyuk]

I don't think Manuel or anyone from Vengeance is ever going to comment on this, which is pretty poor imo. There's nothing more basic than knowing what you are and are not allowed to use the product for.

The EULA is deliberately written in such a manner to be all-encompassing. That means that if you want to be safe, you have to follow the letter of the law, and that means no using any melody in an SQ or ARP. I think in practice any ARP that is a simple pattern would never be copyrightable by them, you or anyone, but anything that forms a distinct melody should be avoided.

This, in theory, makes many of those lovely SQs and ARPs little more than fun demos, but of course if you manually edit the melody - significantly - you'd be okay I guess.

The thing is - irritating as this is, it's just not a good idea to use SQs anyway. Write your own damn thing. SQs just tie you up in pre-baked knots. IMO the best way to think of them IS as demos - look, here's what you can do. As such I think there's way too much emphasis on them. 2 or 3 in each XP would be enough - give us more bread and butter we can actually use.

As for vocal samples, these do need clarity. If you cannot use them commercially, they are completely worthless.

[SiriusVI]

I don't think Manuel or anyone from Vengeance is ever going to comment on this, which is pretty poor imo. There's nothing more basic than knowing what you are and are not allowed to use the product for.

The EULA is deliberately written in such a manner to be all-encompassing. That means that if you want to be safe, you have to follow the letter of the law, and that means no using any melody in an SQ or ARP. I think in practice any ARP that is a simple pattern would never be copyrightable by them, you or anyone, but anything that forms a distinct melody should be avoided.

This, in theory, makes many of those lovely SQs and ARPs little more than fun demos, but of course if you manually edit the melody - significantly - you'd be okay I guess.

The thing is - irritating as this is, it's just not a good idea to use SQs anyway. Write your own damn thing. SQs just tie you up in pre-baked knots. IMO the best way to think of them IS as demos - look, here's what you can do. As such I think there's way too much emphasis on them. 2 or 3 in each XP would be enough - give us more bread and butter we can actually use.

As for vocal samples, these do need clarity. If you cannot use them commercially, they are completely worthless.

I'm afraid you might be correct. As I said in my initial post, I've been waiting for months for an email response from Vengeance support. I think it is very unprofessional that they haven't given me any answer as of yet. That is why I decided to post my question here, since I saw Manuel answering questions in this thread.

I agree of course with what you said about sequences and compositions. They are just little demos, and I would not use them in as is in any of my songs.

However, I am asking specifically about the vocal samples, because if no vocal that has lyrics can ever be used in commercial releases, then these vocal packs / expansions are indeed worthless. I like these vocals. I would like to buy these vocals. But if I cannot use them, what’s the point?

And the near certainty that I would never get “caught” if I did it anyway, because none of my tracks will ever be a hit, is not enough. This is the same logic pirates use, and I shouldn't have to deal with this when legally buying a product.

I need to be sure that I can legally use the VOCAL samples in the VOCAL pack / expansion I’m buying. That’s all I’m asking for. If this is not cleared up, I cannot justify the purchase and will take my business elsewhere.

On top of that, I want to stress that if the ambiguity was indeed deliberate as you suggest, I believe that this would be quite a shady practice. People might be tricked into buying vocal samples after seeing flashy YouTube commercial videos (such as the one I linked above), not knowing that they will never be able to use them in the way these videos suggest.

[twal]

I think the legality of using Vengeance Vocals are equal to using any vocal pack phrases in an arrangement. Even to industry leaders it is ambiguous at best, so nobody will ever get a clear cut answer. Of course getting a reply from Vengeance is obviously endearing and situates, but overall, I think it comes down to who you trust to take action if there ever IS a problem (and that's why you are inquiring in the first place), but ultimately it's a risk one has to take for phrases (maybe make them chops).

[zvenx]

Hmm. Not sure about that. For instance there are some vocal phrases in Omnisphere for instance that I could use in my commercial productions if i so choose. Same with vocals in many NI Maschine's expansions.

And for sure, unless their EULA's have changed, they werent ambiguous, deliberately or otherwise.

rsp

[twal]

Hmm. Not sure about that. For instance there are some vocal phrases in Omnisphere for instance that I could use in my commercial productions if i so choose. Same with vocals in many NI Maschine's expansions.

And for sure, unless their EULA's have changed, they werent ambiguous, deliberately or otherwise.

rsp

Artists do it all of the time. What is stated by Splice and other services is unambiguous but implications are ambiguous. If Spectrosonics and NI are more honorable then fantastic.

[noiseboyuk]

It's a difficult area that has got more difficult. Really the EULA should be straightforward - no reselling or repackaging, but you can use in a commercial production. The problem now I think is that if someone registers a track with a vocal sample in it, that same sample may now become infringed copyright for everyone else who uses it, which is clearly wrong. I don't know the answer to that sort of situation other than - find some vocalists.

[SouledOut]

Just treat the vocal phrases as they are supposed to be treated - that is, as an instrument in your own composition. Take from them, repeat, chop, alter, whatever... You are an artist afterall, and an artist is a maker, not a repeater. Don't take what somebody else made and call it your own. Make the Avenger vocals/guitar loops a brick in a house you build yourself. If you somehow decide to use the whole vocal phrase as it is and make "your own song" around it, it would be obvious this is NOT your song, it's somebody else's idea so yes, this might be a copyright infringement...

Then again, I just don't know how you could even sleep well over taking the whole vocal phrase and calling it your own song. Remember: YOU are an artist and Avenger is an instrument. Take somebody else's work that has been put into Avenger and you are not an artist anymore. Then what's the point of doing it at all in the first place?

[m-ac]

Just treat the vocal phrases as they are supposed to be treated - that is, as an instrument in your own composition. Take from them, repeat, chop, alter, whatever... You are an artist afterall, and an artist is a maker, not a repeater. Don't take what somebody else made and call it your own. Make the Avenger vocals/guitar loops a brick in a house you build yourself. If you somehow decide to use the whole vocal phrase as it is and make "your own song" around it, it would be obvious this is NOT your song, it's somebody else's idea so yes, this might be a copyright infringement...

Then again, I just don't know how you could even sleep well over taking the whole vocal phrase and calling it your own song. Remember: YOU are an artist and Avenger is an instrument. Take somebody else's work that has been put into Avenger and you are not an artist anymore. Then what's the point of doing it at all in the first place?

People don't want to know if they should, they want to know if they could.

[Chipi]

I don't think Manuel or anyone from Vengeance is ever going to comment on this, which is pretty poor imo. There's nothing more basic than knowing what you are and are not allowed to use the product for.

The EULA is deliberately written in such a manner to be all-encompassing. That means that if you want to be safe, you have to follow the letter of the law, and that means no using any melody in an SQ or ARP. I think in practice any ARP that is a simple pattern would never be copyrightable by them, you or anyone, but anything that forms a distinct melody should be avoided.

This, in theory, makes many of those lovely SQs and ARPs little more than fun demos, but of course if you manually edit the melody - significantly - you'd be okay I guess.

The thing is - irritating as this is, it's just not a good idea to use SQs anyway. Write your own damn thing. SQs just tie you up in pre-baked knots. IMO the best way to think of them IS as demos - look, here's what you can do. As such I think there's way too much emphasis on them. 2 or 3 in each XP would be enough - give us more bread and butter we can actually use.

As for vocal samples, these do need clarity. If you cannot use them commercially, they are completely worthless.

I'm afraid you might be correct. As I said in my initial post, I've been waiting for months for an email response from Vengeance support. I think it is very unprofessional that they haven't given me any answer as of yet. That is why I decided to post my question here, since I saw Manuel answering questions in this thread.

I agree of course with what you said about sequences and compositions. They are just little demos, and I would not use them in as is in any of my songs.

However, I am asking specifically about the vocal samples, because if no vocal that has lyrics can ever be used in commercial releases, then these vocal packs / expansions are indeed worthless. I like these vocals. I would like to buy these vocals. But if I cannot use them, what’s the point?

And the near certainty that I would never get “caught” if I did it anyway, because none of my tracks will ever be a hit, is not enough. This is the same logic pirates use, and I shouldn't have to deal with this when legally buying a product.

I need to be sure that I can legally use the VOCAL samples in the VOCAL pack / expansion I’m buying. That’s all I’m asking for. If this is not cleared up, I cannot justify the purchase and will take my business elsewhere.

On top of that, I want to stress that if the ambiguity was indeed deliberate as you suggest, I believe that this would be quite a shady practice. People might be tricked into buying vocal samples after seeing flashy YouTube commercial videos (such as the one I linked above), not knowing that they will never be able to use them in the way these videos suggest.

Yeah!!, understand your concerns and frustrations dude. It can be frustrating when the licensing terms for a product are not clear, especially when it comes to using vocal samples in commercial productions. It's important to have a clear understanding of the licensing terms before purchasing and using any product.

As you mentioned, waiting for a response from Vengeance support for months without receiving any answer is unprofessional and can be frustrating. It's always best to have clear communication and prompt support from the product's creators, especially when it comes to legal and licensing matters.

It's also important to make sure that the usage of vocal samples aligns with copyright laws and regulations in your country or region. Using vocal samples that are copyrighted without proper clearance or licensing can result in legal issues, even if your tracks are not commercially successful. As an artist, it's important to respect intellectual property rights and use samples in a legal and ethical manner.

If the ambiguity in the licensing terms of the vocal samples in the Vengeance pack is intentional or misleading, it's not a good practice, and it's important to seek clarification or consider other options for purchasing vocal samples from reputable sources with clear and transparent licensing terms.

In conclusion, it's important to do thorough research, seek clarifications, and make informed decisions when it comes to using vocal samples or any other content in your commercial productions. Clear and transparent licensing terms, prompt support, and respect for intellectual property rights are essential in the music production industry. If you are unsure about the legality of using vocal samples from Vengeance or any other source, it's best to seek legal advice from a qualified attorney to ensure compliance with copyright laws and regulations.

[Chipi]

The terms of use for Vengeance Sound products, including soundsets, samples, and audiodemos, state that all products are copyrighted by Vengeance Sound and reselling of any Vengeance Sound product, including individual sounds, is prohibited. Any violation of this term will be legally pursued. By purchasing a Vengeance Sound product, you accept this agreement.

The keilwerth Audio / Vengeance Software License is a contract between you, the end-user of the software, referred to as "THE USER", and keilwerth Audio / Vengeance, referred to as the "AUTHOR(S)", and is governed under the laws of Germany. The license grants you a personal, revocable, non-exclusive license to access, read, use, and download one copy of the licensed materials for the purposes provided under the agreement. However, there are several restrictions, including not transferring or sublicensing the licensed materials to another party, not removing any copyright or proprietary notations, not creating derivative works, not circumventing copy-protection mechanisms, and not commercially using any compositions or content from Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries without authorization from the AUTHOR(S).

The AUTHOR(S) provide no warranty for the software and information, and the entire risk as to the quality and usefulness of the software and information is with THE USER. The AUTHOR(S) will not be liable for any damages, lost profits, lost monies, or other special, incidental, or consequential damages arising from the use or inability to use the software and/or information, even if THE USER has advised them of the possibility of such damages. THE USER must also comply with all applicable laws and regulations, and any violation of the terms of use may result in legal action. Additionally, the keilwerth Audio / Vengeance Software License supersedes any verbal or prior verbal or written statement or agreement to the contrary. If you do not understand or accept these terms, or if local regulations prohibit "after sale" license agreements or limited disclaimers, you must cease and desist using the product immediately. Copyright laws supersede all local regulations. Finally, all rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by the AUTHOR(S) and are reserved, and commercial use of such content is prohibited unless authorized by the AUTHOR(S). 4 The restrictions set out in this Agreement are binding upon You and any transferee, successor, or assignee of the Licenced Materials. Overall, it is important to carefully read and understand the terms of use and license agreement for Vengeance Sound products before using them. Failure to comply with these terms may result in legal consequences. If you have any questions or concerns, it is recommended to contact Vengeance Sound for clarification. Always make sure to review and understand the terms and conditions of any software or product before using it to ensure compliance with applicable laws and regulations. If you have any questions or concerns about the terms of use or license agreement, it is recommended to seek legal advice or contact the software manufacturer for clarification.

[Chipi]

Hey everyone,

I'm still very confused about the licence when it comes to using Avenger or sample packs for commercial releases. I've written a total of four emails over the course of four months to Vengeance support, but I haven't gotten a single reply as of yet.

I'm just going to copy the contents of the mail here and hope Manuel will reply or that maybe someone else can help me:

Hello Vengeance Team,

I bought the Avenger VST and I have a question regarding the license, because I release songs commercially on Spotify, Amazon and YouTube among other services.

In your terms of use it says:

"2 Under the Licence you may not and shall not, without Our express written authorization: [...] - commercially use any compositions, melodies, melody-loops, lyrics, and vocal-samples or parts hereof from any Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries. All rights on melodies, musical compositions, lyrics, vocals, and melody-loops included in Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries are owned by Us and are reserved."

Does this mean that if I buy the " Avenger Expansion pack: Vocal Trance", for example, I can't use the vocals in the expansion in my commercial releases? This is how I understand your terms of service, but it doesn't make sense to me, because if I cannot use the vocals in my commercial releases, what's the point in me buying / you selling a vocal expansion at all?

I'd appreciate it if you could clear this up for me.

Thank you, have a great day!

A email that could be used to request a response from Vengeance:

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, State ZIP Code]
[Email Address]
[Date]

Vengeance Sound GmbH
[Address]
[City, State ZIP Code]
[Country]

Re: Request for Response

Dear Vengeance-Manuel,

I am writing to bring to your attention my previous communication regarding [specific issue or concern, e.g., use of vocal samples from Vengeance Samples or Audio Plugin Libraries for commercial purposes]. I have sent multiple emails to your customer service department on [date(s)] requesting clarification and guidance on this matter, but I have not received any response to date.

As a paying customer, I am disappointed with the lack of communication and support from your company. I have invested my time and money in purchasing your products, and I expect prompt and satisfactory assistance in addressing my concerns.

I urge you to acknowledge and respond to my request as soon as possible to resolve this matter. If I do not receive a response within a reasonable timeframe, I may have to consider taking further actions, including seeking legal remedies to protect my rights as a consumer.

I appreciate your attention to this matter and look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,
[Your Name]

Please note that this is a general example and should be customized to your specific situation and the nature of your concern. It's always recommended to seek legal advice or assistance from a qualified attorney if you are considering legal action against a company. Laws and regulations related to consumer rights and legal actions may vary by jurisdiction, and it's important to understand your rights and responsibilities before taking any legal action. Always consult with a qualified attorney for legal matters. Additionally, sending an intimidating letter or making threats may not be productive and it's best to approach the situation in a respectful and professional manner. Communication and resolution through amicable means, such as direct contact with the company or seeking assistance from relevant consumer protection agencies, may also be options to consider before considering legal action. Good luck!

[WasteLand]

Avenger is now rent-to-own via Plugin Boutique. £92.50, or £7.75 pm for 12 months.

https://www.pluginboutique.com/products/3201

Interesting. I wonder what would happen if V2 is out in the next few months while someone is on this V1 rent to own. I mean what are the upgrade options then.

Hi Manuel, is it possible to comment on this with some information?

strange that this question isn't answered yet, because, when you rent to own, the overlap, even if it is end of this, will be there...