Conforming clips to project tempo?

[irpacynot]

So, I learned recently about utilizing the speed adjustment for a clip, using the "pro" option to help maintain the pitch, etc.

However, I'm wondering why some clips automatically conform to a set project tempo whilst other don't. Once I found the Looperman site (just in the past couple of weeks), I've been like a kid in a candy store, mainly for drum/percussion loops.

I noticed that importing some of the clips, though they may be of a very different tempo than what I have set for the project, the clip(s) will still conform and fit perfectly to the beat. Others, not at all.

Does it have to do with some of them being MIDI? Or is it some type of file condition?

Thanks

[pough]

I can't imagine any MIDI clip not conforming to the tempo, though it might be off in other ways (eg. 3/4 instead of 4/4).

Audio clips will only match the tempo if they happen to have metadata in them that states the BPM and number of beats.

(The next version might have the ability to figure audio out regardless of metadata.)

[irpacynot]

I can't imagine any MIDI clip not conforming to the tempo, though it might be off in other ways (eg. 3/4 instead of 4/4).

Audio clips will only match the tempo if they happen to have metadata in them that states the BPM and number of beats.

(The next version might have the ability to figure audio out regardless of metadata.)

All right. That makes total sense. Thank you for the reply.

[irpacynot]

I can't imagine any MIDI clip not conforming to the tempo, though it might be off in other ways (eg. 3/4 instead of 4/4).

Audio clips will only match the tempo if they happen to have metadata in them that states the BPM and number of beats.

(The next version might have the ability to figure audio out regardless of metadata.)

So, follow-up question:

Created a project yesterday specifically to test all this out. I imported five clips from Looperman, all of them obviously using MIDI instruments, but three out of the five clips I imported did not conform to the project tempo.

What do you think caused that?

[nowgad]

tempo.

When you import a midi, you are asked whether to apply the bpm import or apply your project's bpm to the midi. In both cases, there is no error. What you need is what you choose.

[pough]

What do you think caused that?

Having never used anything from Looperman, I have no idea. Something seems to be going wrong somewhere, but I would need to have the same or at least similar issue to begin to investigate. I can't recall any imported MIDI doing something like that in this software in the last 20 years. I don't even know how it would be possible, considering MIDI data is pretty much just "note C4 starts at beat one and lasts two beats".

Unless you're saying yes to the question nowgad describes and it creates a tempo change. In that case, it's not that the MIDI isn't conforming to the project tempo, it's the project conforming to the MIDI clip's tempo.

[nowgad]

No matter how upset, upset, some aspects, in particular, bugs, Waveform, but, we must pay tribute to the developers, almost all the features are deeply logical and thought out to the smallest detail functions. Why I love this daw. So it makes sense to read the clues and direct your thinking to logical constructive thinking.

but! one of the biggest mysteries of Tracktion is the Waveform update, everything else lends itself to logic

[irpacynot]

I think perhaps I misspoke. They're not .mid files, they're MIDI recordings saved to .wav files. But again, sometimes those files conform to the project tempo, despite having a different tempo.

[pough]

But again, sometimes those files conform to the project tempo, despite having a different tempo.

If the person who created the loop made sure the metadata exists, Waveform will read the metadata. If the metadata is not there, or is in a format that Waveform can't read, it will just be a chunk of audio. Keep in mind that such metadata is an optional extension of the WAV format and is not an inherent property; also that many audio files should not have that information (eg. single snare hit, Wilhelm scream.)

Tangentially, I have been trying for years to find a good audio editor that will allow me to easily add such metadata. So far, no luck.

[pough]

I was going to make a quick tutorial on how to get Waveform to get those bare (no-metadata) loops to conform to the project tempo but I have been fighting with Waveform this morning. When you import an audio clip into Waveform you can tell it the properties. Or at least you used to be able to. It seems to be broken; inconsistent.

Sometimes I can tell it the number of beats and it will accurately set the BPM. Other times it inaccurately sets the BPM. Still other times it simply won't let me set the number of beats at all, insisting on stupidity. Yeah, a nine beat loop. You're right, Waveform. Nine beats of 4/4.

I would load up an old version of Waveform to see if it used to work better, but when I do that it erases all of the Edit previews.

Okay, so here's a quick tutorial that will work if it works. Good luck.

Step #1 - open the Control Panel into "Useful Mode". That's always the first step. Assume that I am ranting a hateful rant about how this first step shouldn't be necessary because I am. I always am. Useful should be the default.

Step #2 - with an audio clip selected, choose the "Loop Properties" tab.

Step #3 - set the number of beats in the clip and make sure the time signature is correct.

Step #4 - If you are fortunate enough, the BPM will be automatically set to the correct BPM. Waveform knows the length of the clip, so based on the time signature and number of beats it should know and set the BPM.

Step #5 - if it all seems correct, turn on "Auto-Tempo". It should re-draw the waveform. However, it doesn't change the length of the clip to fit until you try to change the length of the clip. It should, but (for me) it doesn't. You have to give it a little tickle to remind it.

Note that this doesn't update the original audio file. It will still lack metadata. There used to be a way to save that back into the original file, but for the life of me I can't remember how. I have a folder full of loops, half of which I managed to update and half without metadata. Last time I tried, it simply deleted the audio file.

[Watchful]

The post by Pough--and this may be the martinis talking--is both interesting and entertaining. I'm going to read it again.

[irpacynot]

I was going to make a quick tutorial on how to get Waveform to get those bare (no-metadata) loops to conform to the project tempo but I have been fighting with Waveform this morning. When you import an audio clip into Waveform you can tell it the properties. Or at least you used to be able to. It seems to be broken; inconsistent.

Sometimes I can tell it the number of beats and it will accurately set the BPM. Other times it inaccurately sets the BPM. Still other times it simply won't let me set the number of beats at all, insisting on stupidity. Yeah, a nine beat loop. You're right, Waveform. Nine beats of 4/4.

I would load up an old version of Waveform to see if it used to work better, but when I do that it erases all of the Edit previews.

Okay, so here's a quick tutorial that will work if it works. Good luck.

Step #1 - open the Control Panel into "Useful Mode". That's always the first step. Assume that I am ranting a hateful rant about how this first step shouldn't be necessary because I am. I always am. Useful should be the default.

Step #2 - with an audio clip selected, choose the "Loop Properties" tab.

Step #3 - set the number of beats in the clip and make sure the time signature is correct.

Step #4 - If you are fortunate enough, the BPM will be automatically set to the correct BPM. Waveform knows the length of the clip, so based on the time signature and number of beats it should know and set the BPM.

Step #5 - if it all seems correct, turn on "Auto-Tempo". It should re-draw the waveform. However, it doesn't change the length of the clip to fit until you try to change the length of the clip. It should, but (for me) it doesn't. You have to give it a little tickle to remind it.

Note that this doesn't update the original audio file. It will still lack metadata. There used to be a way to save that back into the original file, but for the life of me I can't remember how. I have a folder full of loops, half of which I managed to update and half without metadata. Last time I tried, it simply deleted the audio file.

Man...thank you for spending this much time working through this with me. Thanks to both of you. I look forward to messing around with that. If nothing else, it is still nice that they have the speed-adjustment tools to help in that area.

I didn't realize authors of the clips could inject their own metadata. Heck, I don't know squat all about that, but I'm sure that must be what explains the issue.

Thanks again.

[irpacynot]

...

Step #4 - If you are fortunate enough...

Wow!

Like a freaking charm!

So, evidently, you can lower the number of beats, but not raise (which I guess makes sense, since there's a definite amount of content). But holy crap it works damned-near perfectly. Lop off the empty space left on the clip, and it's golden.

I think I love you!

[dysjoint]

Just leaving this here for the search function.
For clips without meta data I mainly use the 'do it yoyrself' method of alt/drag to stretch the clip, turn off the 'use proxy file' option (12 Pro, see last paragraph for reason why), select the desired time stretching algorithm (elastique pro) and render the clip.
If you want the old school sampler effect where the pitch is not preserved then simply don't select an algorithm.
If you have your auto tempo settings for audio clips on, Waveform will write meta data into the rendered clip based on your edit settings (I can't vouch 100% for the results as I do my best to turn it off and I wish it wasn't almost forced as a default option)
I have been stumbling over a few random buggy bits in this area that I haven't noticed before, but nothing I can't work around.

Side note about proxy files in Waveform 12 Pro. In the settings you can set Waveform to use proxy files by default, and at clip level you can check/uncheck the option in the control panel. This option is supposed to reduce cpu load by (it appears) doing temporary renders instead of real time calculations (mini clip level freezes???) However it can introduce audible distortion when you go to render your finished track. Observation based on chopping up a vocal in a remix project, rendered the track, sounded terrible, went back and turned off proxy file option for every sliced clip, problem solved.

[irpacynot]

Just leaving this here for the search function.
For clips without meta data I mainly use the 'do it yoyrself' method of alt/drag to stretch the clip, turn off the 'use proxy file' option (12 Pro, see last paragraph for reason why), select the desired time stretching algorithm (elastique pro) and render the clip.
If you want the old school sampler effect where the pitch is not preserved then simply don't select an algorithm.
If you have your auto tempo settings for audio clips on, Waveform will write meta data into the rendered clip based on your edit settings (I can't vouch 100% for the results as I do my best to turn it off and I wish it wasn't almost forced as a default option)
I have been stumbling over a few random buggy bits in this area that I haven't noticed before, but nothing I can't work around.

Side note about proxy files in Waveform 12 Pro. In the settings you can set Waveform to use proxy files by default, and at clip level you can check/uncheck the option in the control panel. This option is supposed to reduce cpu load by (it appears) doing temporary renders instead of real time calculations (mini clip level freezes???) However it can introduce audible distortion when you go to render your finished track. Observation based on chopping up a vocal in a remix project, rendered the track, sounded terrible, went back and turned off proxy file option for every sliced clip, problem solved.

That's awesome. Thank you!