mpe with diva and repro, with global controller as well

[glittle]

I am using cubase to run diva or repro, controlling it with a linnstrument. As long as I set the cubase track midi to "any" (so that it preserves the channel numbers rather than banging all midi messages to one channel), this works great with diva and repro. Both synths "do the right thing", pitch bends and so on do work on a per-note basis as it all should with MPE.

However, I want to also use a global controller (for instance, a breath controller) to shape the overall sound across all notes.

My understanding is that these global controllers should transmit on channel 1.

However, it seems that Diva and Repro are ignoring channel 1 control messages for notes that are not on channel 1. Thus, the breath controller has no effect.

Looking at the track data, it *looks* like everything is at least as I *think* it should be.

Is there something I need to do with Diva/Repro to get them to respond globally to channel 1, but individually on all the other channels? Is there something more I need to do in Cubase?

I am new to MPE, so it could be that my understanding is incorrect.

Thanks for any ideas/hints.

[Fannon]

I don't have Cubase, but I think you understood the problem correctly.
For Reaper and Bitwig I created some script / bitwig device where you can choose global MIDI CC like Mod wheel, breath, expression and forward it to all channels.

The problem with the u-he synths is that they do not treat channel one as the main-channel. Every channel is fully independent of each other.

[Fannon]

2023-06-09 07_13_18-Hive Soundesign [modified] - REAPER v6.80 - Registered to Simon Heimler (License.png

midi_CC_omnichannel.zip

2023-06-09 07_15_37-Bitwig Studio - New 2.png

MIDI CC Omni Channel.zip

[glittle]

Aw shoot... that's disappointing. I assume this is not something that is an imminent update for the u-he collection? Has there been an official word on why this isn't there? Is it not a standard part of the protocol/definition of how MPE works?

Thanks again for the confirmation. Anyone else run into this on Cubase and found a workaround that works there?

[Fannon]

Yes, that behavior is part of the MPE spec. Actually I think it defines it the other way around: Only a few MIDI values are per-note (Velocity, Timbre, pressure) - the rest are shared.

If I remember right, Urs mentioned that Zebra 3 should be fully MPE compliant. I can imagine (hoping for it) that they could backport this to their other more modern synths.

Btw. there's another way to address this on the LinnStrument itself: If you disable the "One Chan", the the linnstrument will send shared messages to all selected "ChPerNote". But for me that got laggy when sending to 16 channels at the same time, so you probably also want to reduce the number of channels. 6-8 should be sufficient anyway?. I prefer using the tools of the post above because it's cheaper on DAW side to duplicate MIDI messages. But the LinnStrument can do it on its own side as well.

[glittle]

I'm not sure I understand the "address this on the LinnStrument" concept...? The LS is sending data to a track in cubase, and a separate breath controller is also sending data to that track. The LS knows nothing about the extra breath controller data going to cubase. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are describing?

And a vehement vote from me for porting "treat channel 1 controller data as global" into the existing u-he synths. Seems on the face of it like it would be straightforward, but I've done coding and I know that often what seems simple is really really not. But bummer that I can't use my favorite synths for this now. Zebra is perfect for a bunch of subtle ideas I had in mind, and repro in particular just sounds alive when controlled this way.

[Fannon]

Oh sorry, I overlooked that aspect. You're right, if the MIDI is not going through the LS it cannot distribute it across the used channels. Then you likely need a software solution like the ones I originally proposed, but for Cubase.

[tasmaniandevil]

Has there been an official word on why this isn't there? Is it not a standard part of the protocol/definition of how MPE works?

We currently do NOT support the MPE protocol. What we support is multi-channel MIDI.
The global MIDI channel is one of the things we have not implemented yet, so this simply cannot work right now.
We hope to fully support MPE in the future, but right now we cannot say when exactly this will happen.

[carrieres]

Set Control A or Control B to cc74 for Timbre. Pressure is obvious

The u-he synths work great for Pitch, Pressure and Timbre with MPE. (Except Zebra). But since Bitwig 3.2 and the updated selector devices one can do MPE with Zebra using multiple instances (less convenient for editing obviously).

Bazille is one of my favorite synths for MPE as the synth engine is very expressive and organic sounding and one can set up lots of nuanced modulation.

The only thing missing on the u-he synths is release velocity... I don’t miss it myself cause I find it too hard control while playing. Bitwig also has the envelope on release modulator so that is covered better by that anyway.

So it is working with MPE, why are you saying it is not working

[enCiphered]

Set Control A or Control B to cc74 for Timbre. Pressure is obvious

The u-he synths work great for Pitch, Pressure and Timbre with MPE. (Except Zebra). But since Bitwig 3.2 and the updated selector devices one can do MPE with Zebra using multiple instances (less convenient for editing obviously).

Bazille is one of my favorite synths for MPE as the synth engine is very expressive and organic sounding and one can set up lots of nuanced modulation.

The only thing missing on the u-he synths is release velocity... I don’t miss it myself cause I find it too hard control while playing. Bitwig also has the envelope on release modulator so that is covered better by that anyway.

So it is working with MPE, why are you saying it is not working

Because it´s not.
Assigning controls and parameters to CC´s and using multiple instances of the same plugin is cumbersome, inconvenient and not a proper MPE implementation, period.

[carrieres]

only Zebra2 need multiple instances

[glittle]

Either way, the "midi channel 1 control data applies to all voices" does not work, which is what I was puzzled about when I started this thread. I can do "MPE-ish" things with Repro and Diva because of what Tasmaniandevil mentioned, "multi-channel midi".

Not being able to do breath (or other global-to-all-voices) control however is a significant hindrance to "real" MPE performance, so while it is unfortunate, I wholeheartedly appreciate that u-he is up-front and honest and clearly states here that they "do NOT support MPE".

[Fannon]

Yes, MPE-ish is a good term for what you can do. I think it's sufficient for many (most?) styles of sound, but it would be awesome to get proper MPE-Support in the future.

In my understanding this also includes "detecting" that MPE mode is active and automatically setting up the synth (like pitch bend range) and imho it should also offer Timbre and Pressure as dedicated modulation sources.

I wonder, if CLAP is properly supported and you have Bitwig - you can probably use the Bitwig modulators to have fully MPE expressive patches. (CLAP is still in beta)

[pdxindy]

Not being able to do breath (or other global-to-all-voices) control however is a significant hindrance to "real" MPE performance, so while it is unfortunate, I wholeheartedly appreciate that u-he is up-front and honest and clearly states here that they "do NOT support MPE".

I don't know Cubase, so maybe there are no sort of Macro controls. In Bitwig it is trivial to use breath or other CC as a global modulator to all voices.

The u-he synths, (besides Zebra) support MPE well enough in any practical sense.

[pdxindy]

I wonder, if CLAP is properly supported and you have Bitwig - you can probably use the Bitwig modulators to have fully MPE expressive patches. (CLAP is still in beta)

Not sure what you mean by "fully MPE expressive patches".

With CLAP versions of the u-he plugins, there is currently an issue that pitch bend doesn't work. When the next u-he CLAP betas come out that is likely to be fixed.

Besides that, with Bitwig and Clap versions of u-he synths, one can have unlimited per voice modulation controlled by MPE parameters via MPE controllers. The possibilities go beyond what is usually thought of as MPE.