Kick drum keeps overpowering every mix

[dayjob]

There’s no rules. Just do what sounds right to you. If something is too loud then turn it down or change your mix bus etc.

[Hedge12]

There’s no rules. Just do what sounds right to you. If something is too loud then turn it down or change your mix bus etc.

Great, thank you!
I'll try to keep that in mind.

Maybe a follow-up question, if their aren't any rules to follow.
Why do I see the same advice scattered online?
Is this just unuseful filter bubble?

[vurt]

a lot of those people have no real experience, think of it this way, how can the mix of one track, fit another track, using different sounds and tempo and key?
it can't.
can a clicky short kick, be mixed the same as a long tonal kick?

the rules are guidelines, at best, or there would be no point in some bands choosing a different mix engineer for example, steve albinis mixes, don't sound like enos rock mixes (u2 and such).

at the end of the day, the artist, in this case, you, has a vision of the finished piece in your head, getting it to sound like that, is the only rule!

as has been mentioned, it's difficult to say what's needed to get there, without hearing it is difficult, all we can offer is guided opinion.

[vurt]

one big thing, be confident in your own decisions, don't second guess your ears based on what some youtube person said

[Hedge12]

a lot of those people have no real experience, think of it this way, how can the mix of one track, fit another track, using different sounds and tempo and key?
it can't.
can a clicky short kick, be mixed the same as a long tonal kick?

the rules are guidelines, at best, or there would be no point in some bands choosing a different mix engineer for example, steve albinis mixes, don't sound like enos rock mixes (u2 and such).

at the end of the day, the artist, in this case, you, has a vision of the finished piece in your head, getting it to sound like that, is the only rule!

as has been mentioned, it's difficult to say what's needed to get there, without hearing it is difficult, all we can offer is guided opinion.

Your comment makes a lot of sense, thank you!

Indeed, I think I rely too much on rules and guidelines, and take them too strictly.
Yet, I'm still learning, so I take what others say at heart, and try every technique I find out there.

It's just confusing to see someone do something you aspire to, and that technique not translating to your own projects (which is fine of course, it's a steep learning curve, which is fully accept).

Maybe one more question, I don't use a sound card interface at the moment, but a 2-way XLR to mini jack (goes into my Macbook), which is not great. Would a sound card interface improve my hearing skills overall? Because now, at lower volumes things sound okeysih but once I turn up the volume, it's all out of balance.

Thank you for all your input and time

[vurt]

how does a cd sound on the monitors?
if that sounds ok at a higher volume, then so should the music you are mixing.

that said, when you can afford one, it's best to add it, not so much for the hearing, but for cpu efficiency and such.
although im also a great advocate of the guerilla studio approach, make do with the gear you can get! spent many years in a poor financial situation, but still had the urge to make music, so used cheap stuff just to get things done.

maybe one idea you could try, as you mention you are a beginner, and i don't know if any yourube channels you watch offer this, but i went to school for this.
to begin with, mixing classes, we all worked on provided audio and samples from the tutor. then we followed similar tutorials to what you are talking about, where the numbers worked.
then they started giving us the guides, but without using numbers, just us hearing what to go for.
it was a year or so before we started on our own stuff. (although i was of course doing stuff outside of school myself)

[cron]

Pinch of salt with my advice because I am also very bad at synthesising/mixing drums generally, and (though I'm focusing much more on visual art these days) my music was more at the weird ambient end of things. However, two things that have helped me might be relevant from reading your posts:

I've found that simpler kicks are much easier for someone of my skill level to mix. While I haven't heard the particular pack you're pulling your samples from, I find that kicks from genre focused packs often just have too much going on. Hyper-layered, full spectrum dominance affairs that remind me more of cinematic sound design than dance music. They sound amazing in isolation, but are a nightmare to sit in a mix when you're a mere mortal like me rather than a wizard of the desk. On the other hand, I can pull up a basic 909 kit and get it sounding good pretty much straight away.

Secondly, you mention tuning your kicks and (my non-expert opinion) I am fully against this unless your kick has both a long stable tone and explicitly functions as a melodic element. E.g., if you're making trap or something with super long 808s that function as both kick and bass simultaneously. What is your kick's job? If it's just there to thump away, I think a bit of separation from the melodic elements is actually a good thing that will result in less frequency clashing from a mixing standpoint. Tuning in these instances should be about timbre IMO. Early 90s rave tunes could take this to extremes and wouldn't even tune the sub bass, because melody wasn't it's job. It was just there to rattle your chest.

[Hedge12]

Pinch of salt with my advice because I am also very bad at synthesising/mixing drums generally, and (though I'm focusing much more on visual art these days) my music was more at the weird ambient end of things. However, two things that have helped me might be relevant from reading your posts:

I've found that simpler kicks are much easier for someone of my skill level to mix. While I haven't heard the particular pack you're pulling your samples from, I find that kicks from genre focused packs often just have too much going on. Hyper-layered, full spectrum dominance affairs that remind me more of cinematic sound design than dance music. They sound amazing in isolation, but are a nightmare to sit in a mix when you're a mere mortal like me rather than a wizard of the desk. On the other hand, I can pull up a basic 909 kit and get it sounding good pretty much straight away.

Secondly, you mention tuning your kicks and (my non-expert opinion) I am fully against this unless your kick has both a long stable tone and explicitly functions as a melodic element. E.g., if you're making trap or something with super long 808s that function as both kick and bass simultaneously. What is your kick's job? If it's just there to thump away, I think a bit of separation from the melodic elements is actually a good thing that will result in less frequency clashing from a mixing standpoint. Tuning in these instances should be about timbre IMO. Early 90s rave tunes could take this to extremes and wouldn't even tune the sub bass, because melody wasn't it's job. It was just there to rattle your chest.

Heya! Thank your for that pinch of salt
All feedback is welcome here!

I try to use as little samples (packs) as possible, just to make my life easier and so I don't get lost in a pool of endless samples.

At the moment I have two Production Music Live (PML) samples packs that fit my genre.
But I suppose I could use a 909 kick, yet aren't these samples also over processed? At least those 909 packs you find online? Don't know if you have any experience with Ableton's sample packs, and if these samples would be a good starting point?

Regarding the tuning, I see this everywhere online. Most people (which doesn't mean it's right) claim that not tuning your kick, could lead to problems along the way.
So, I always do it, just to avoid any extra problems.

[dayjob]

There’s no rules. Just do what sounds right to you. If something is too loud then turn it down or change your mix bus etc.

Great, thank you!
I'll try to keep that in mind.

Maybe a follow-up question, if their aren't any rules to follow.
Why do I see the same advice scattered online?
Is this just unuseful filter bubble?

Advice is just advice. Something to try to see if it solves a problem but there’s 10 different ways to fix anything and sometimes the easiest most obvious most simple solution is best

[Hedge12]

There’s no rules. Just do what sounds right to you. If something is too loud then turn it down or change your mix bus etc.

Great, thank you!
I'll try to keep that in mind.

Maybe a follow-up question, if their aren't any rules to follow.
Why do I see the same advice scattered online?
Is this just unuseful filter bubble?

Advice is just advice. Something to try to see if it solves a problem but there’s 10 different ways to fix anything and sometimes the easiest most obvious most simple solution is best

Super!
Thank you for that!

[zerocrossing]

Here’s my trick. Think of a kick as two parts. The “thunder” (low) and the “lightning” (high transient). The key is to punch a hole in the mix for it, but usually a side-chained compressor is a bit of a blunt tool. Multi-band compression is better, but what works best for me is dynamic EQ. I use Waves F6. Find the fundamental of the kick and use it to remove frequencies in offending instruments, like bass. The side chain and threshold will bring it down only when the kick is there. Fast attack, longer decay. Play with the settings to taste. Then, do the same thing with the high frequency parts of other parts. Just a very fast attack and decay so the attack of the kick pokes through. All of the sudden, the kick will seem much louder, because you can notice it more. I often find the kick sound is too loud and I can bring it down.

[Hedge12]

Here’s my trick. Think of a kick as two parts. The “thunder” (low) and the “lightning” (high transient). The key is to punch a hole in the mix for it, but usually a side-chained compressor is a bit of a blunt tool. Multi-band compression is better, but what works best for me is dynamic EQ. I use Waves F6. Find the fundamental of the kick and use it to remove frequencies in offending instruments, like bass. The side chain and threshold will bring it down only when the kick is there. Fast attack, longer decay. Play with the settings to taste. Then, do the same thing with the high frequency parts of other parts. Just a very fast attack and decay so the attack of the kick pokes through. All of the sudden, the kick will seem much louder, because you can notice it more. I often find the kick sound is too loud and I can bring it down.

Thank you for your insights Zercrossing!

I don't have that much experience with Multi-band compression (mostly when I attempt to use it, I just make things louder, but I'll learn one day).

About the side-chain compression, I usually have my attack at 1ms, so the compressor picks up the signal almost instantly (without clicking). For the ratio, I put it on maximum, but maybe that's a bit harsh. But, your logic makes sense, if you make room for the kick by side-chaining important elements (i.e., bass, leads, arps, drum loops, etc.) it will sound more prominent. Thank you for reminding me about that.

I followed the feedback of some other people that responded, by just turning my kick drum down, and it already sounds much more balanced in the new project I started today. I tried to push my lead as the main element, followed by a sustained bass (reese bass), and lastly the kick (and after that all the rest). The main part of the track isn't done yet and needs more elements, but it already sounds better and more even on my monitors.

Still, I use my Yamaha DS 105 monitors and the mix sounds decent through the monitors, but when I switch to my wireless Senheiser (HD350T) the kick and bass seem to disappear (sound low and weak) , while the lead and other higher frequency elements are quite loud. I know the headphones are cheap and for non-audio production use, but it's weird that the mix sounds so different compared to the monitors.

I tried not to adjust too much while using the headphones, but I don't know how to make a good balanced mix that is audible on both headphones and speakers. Any thoughts?

Sorry, for the long text and complicated questions.

[donkey tugger]

Couple of tricks that might help;

Turn the mix right down so it's only just audible. Can you still hear all the elements? If so you're likely to be in the right ballpark in terms of levels.

..and at the other end of things - turn it up fairly loud and go and have a listen from outside the room.

[Hedge12]

Couple of tricks that might help;

Turn the mix right down so it's only just audible. Can you still hear all the elements? If so you're likely to be in the right ballpark in terms of levels.

..and at the other end of things - turn it up fairly loud and go and have a listen from outside the room.

Great advice! Didn't think of that. It reminds me a bit of the pink noise mixing technique, where you just bring up the levels until you can barely hear them!

Thank you very much for your input

[cron]

Still, I use my Yamaha DS 105 monitors and the mix sounds decent through the monitors, but when I switch to my wireless Senheiser (HD350T) the kick and bass seem to disappear (sound low and weak) , while the lead and other higher frequency elements are quite loud. I know the headphones are cheap and for non-audio production use, but it's weird that the mix sounds so different compared to the monitors.

I tried not to adjust too much while using the headphones, but I don't know how to make a good balanced mix that is audible on both headphones and speakers. Any thoughts?

This could be a room treatment thing.

I used to have the opposite problem when my living situation got a bit desperate and all my 'stuff' was in a friend's loft for a time. I'd make a tune on my laptop in (mid-range consumer) headphones thinking my kick and low end sounded pretty great, then I'd take it to a friend's to show what I was working on and my kick and bass were always a boomy mess on speakers.

I wonder if you're seeing the opposite side of the same coin here. If the room you're in has poor acoustics that mangle your bass and lower mids with resonances etc, it makes sense that you'd turn the bass end down to compensate.