If you had to stick to one DAW, which one would it be?

[pottering]

I've been back to Live for a collaboration for a couple weeks now, and IMO there is a limit to this though. Ableton tie the loop and punch in/out feature to the same locators, so you can't overdub while looping without using a count in, and count in is tied to recording so you can't have a click count in without recording. So to have a practice countoff at bar one you have to add in empty space, then audio click WAVs in that space etc.

Just quickly press record again, it will stop recording while it continues playing.

And ctrl+Z removes the last recording, easier than setting up click WAVs.

[vurt]

By the way, in Bitwig you don't even need a mouse... It can all be done for you with modulations + automation...

But as we are talking about DAW and you seems to mean that if something is harder to do then it is better musically, do you mean to say that DAW with worst workflow are better ? ?

Or maybe your point is to say that electronic music is in fact not music because there isn't talented interpret to play it ?

I am not criticising Bitwig, it is a brilliant piece of software engineering. I took the time to watch a video about modulations etc, and was very impressed.So its not about Bitwig. Its about soul. Only a live musician does that for me personally. I did look up the two musicians you mentioned, and listened to a few bits of their music. Jean Michelle Jarre they are not. Just a subjective personal opinion.

you might like william orbit
he does both electronic and orchestral
ive seen a couple of times full orchestra playing his works

not to mention, madonnas best track (frozen) was produced by the lad

also aphex twin or squarepusher are who i think towards when thinking of the virtuosos in electronic.
not to say i don't enjoy mirwais and tobin, but they're not the virtuoso set

[machinesworking]

I've been back to Live for a collaboration for a couple weeks now, and IMO there is a limit to this though. Ableton tie the loop and punch in/out feature to the same locators, so you can't overdub while looping without using a count in, and count in is tied to recording so you can't have a click count in without recording. So to have a practice countoff at bar one you have to add in empty space, then audio click WAVs in that space etc.

Just quickly press record again (during count-in), it will stop recording while it continues playing.

And ctrl+Z removes the last recording (while keeping playing) if you press record again too late, easier than setting up click WAVs.

IMO you're proving my point. Multiple extra steps for something simple that nearly every other DAW can do effortlessly.

[Jac459]

I am not criticising Bitwig, it is a brilliant piece of software engineering. I took the time to watch a video about modulations etc, and was very impressed.So its not about Bitwig. Its about soul. Only a live musician does that for me personally. I did look up the two musicians you mentioned, and listened to a few bits of their music. Jean Michelle Jarre they are not. Just a subjective personal opinion.

Well, then it isn't a question of logic and debate, it is a question of taste and it can only be respected.

From a theoretical standpoint I fully respect virtuoses interprets, but from my own taste, I prefere electronic music. I can't help it.

[pottering]

I've been back to Live for a collaboration for a couple weeks now, and IMO there is a limit to this though. Ableton tie the loop and punch in/out feature to the same locators, so you can't overdub while looping without using a count in, and count in is tied to recording so you can't have a click count in without recording. So to have a practice countoff at bar one you have to add in empty space, then audio click WAVs in that space etc.

Just quickly press record again (during count-in), it will stop recording while it continues playing.

And ctrl+Z removes the last recording (while keeping playing) if you press record again too late, easier than setting up click WAVs.

IMO you're proving my point. Multiple extra steps for something simple that nearly every other DAW can do effortlessly.

2 fast extra steps that take a fraction of a second, users are already used to doing both steps all the time (press record to enable/disable recording, and ctrl+Z), no need to even think much about it.

2nd step (ctrl+Z) is not even needed if you are going to record over the same spot later anyways.

[machinesworking]

[machinesworking]

2 fast extra steps that take a fraction of a second, users are already used to doing both steps all the time (press record to enable/disable recording, and ctrl+Z), no need to even think much about it.

2nd step (ctrl+Z) is not even needed if you are going to record over the same spot later anyways.

Yes because you want to be thinking about hitting the record button while listening to the count off so you can get a good timed recording…… It’s all good you like the lack of features, I don’t. I want to be thinking about the count off not hitting a record button.

[pottering]

The extra step is for STOPPING recording (while still keeping playing) for the practice runs, nothing to do with the actual recording later.

I didn't say anything about being better than other DAWs, I was just providing a one-click solution, simpler ands faster than adding empty space and placing clicks WAV files before the punch-in point.

[BONES]

Wait... you have a Pro license, but use Artist because you don't need the features of Pro. Since you own the Pro license, why not use that and just ignore the pro features? What is in the way?

You ask "why not", I ask "why". I don't need it so why bother? It's a mindset - only use what you need - and I apply it to most things in my life. I try not to be wasteful or indulgent. It's why I haven't installed half the plugins I own licenses for and it sort of flows through everything I do.

When my bandmate sends me something he's been working on, I don't look for what I can add to it, I go through and see what parts it can do without. It is very rare that I add anything. OTOH, when I pass something to him, he either leaves it as is or adds something to it. In the end, we balance each other out, so we end up with everything the song needs and (hopefully) nothing that isn't pulling its weight.

I'm the same at work. I don't look for what I can add to a graphic to make it better, I look at what I can take away without making it worse. Simpler is almost always better.

As you said very well yourself, the most important point, beyond a sequencer, is actually the instrument. Its sound of course but beyond that and more importantly, the way it is played.

That's demonstrably untrue, given that most classic synths had very little opportunity to vary the sound by the way you played it, yet great music was still made.

We can take as an example the Jazz fans

Yes, take them away where nobody has to deal with that shite. Horrid, self-indulgent wankery.

I will summarise all that by expressivity (maybe there is a better word, but I am not native...).

There are so many ways to be expressive that every DAW can manage at least as well as any other. There is nothing in Bitwig's modulation set-up that could not be reproduce din another DAW using simple automation if you needed to do it. So teh "need" is modulation, the way Bitwig does it might be the best way to achieve it but it's just a "want". Similarly, if I wanted to build an arrangement on the fly in Studio One, I can do that easily without anything even resembling a clip launcher. So the "need" is to be able to build an arrangement on the fly, a clip launcher is merely a "want".

But it speed with people like Mirwais or later Amon Tobin, they have introduced a new level of refinement of expressivity in electronic music which has become mainstream with Skrillex and other dubstepers....

Really? I'm not hearing it. They use so much distortion that any expressivity is likely crushed beyond the ability to discern it.

Now I consider Bitwig is the natural brainchild of this approach.

Why? All that stuff was being done long before Bitwig was a thing, so clearly it's a "want", not a "need".

[syntonica]

you might like william orbit
he does both electronic and orchestral
ive seen a couple of times full orchestra playing his works

not to mention, madonnas best track (frozen) was produced by the lad

I think he produced the whole album, which left me in a terrible quandary: buy it, it's William Orbit. Don't buy it, it's Madonna.

I might still have the originally Torch Song on vinyl still, and Bassomatic on tape.

I've never heard his orchestral, though, i guess that makes me a horrible person...

[sQeetz]

Wait... you have a Pro license, but use Artist because you don't need the features of Pro. Since you own the Pro license, why not use that and just ignore the pro features? What is in the way?

You ask "why not", I ask "why". I don't need it so why bother? It's a mindset - only use what you need - and I apply it to most things in my life. I try not to be wasteful or indulgent. It's why I haven't installed half the plugins I own licenses for and it sort of flows through everything I do.

Not installing a bunch of plugins because they are of no use is one thing. But to me it seems wasteful to have two licenses and only use the lesser one just because... you're not wasting anything by not using YOUR pro version, but hey.... you do you

[Jac459]

As you said very well yourself, the most important point, beyond a sequencer, is actually the instrument. Its sound of course but beyond that and more importantly, the way it is played.

That's demonstrably untrue, given that most classic synths had very little opportunity to vary the sound by the way you played it, yet great music was still made.

We can take as an example the Jazz fans

Yes, take them away where nobody has to deal with that shite. Horrid, self-indulgent wankery.

I will summarise all that by expressivity (maybe there is a better word, but I am not native...).

There are so many ways to be expressive that every DAW can manage at least as well as any other. There is nothing in Bitwig's modulation set-up that could not be reproduce din another DAW using simple automation if you needed to do it. So teh "need" is modulation, the way Bitwig does it might be the best way to achieve it but it's just a "want". Similarly, if I wanted to build an arrangement on the fly in Studio One, I can do that easily without anything even resembling a clip launcher. So the "need" is to be able to build an arrangement on the fly, a clip launcher is merely a "want".

But it speed with people like Mirwais or later Amon Tobin, they have introduced a new level of refinement of expressivity in electronic music which has become mainstream with Skrillex and other dubstepers....

Really? I'm not hearing it. They use so much distortion that any expressivity is likely crushed beyond the ability to discern it.

Now I consider Bitwig is the natural brainchild of this approach.

Why? All that stuff was being done long before Bitwig was a thing, so clearly it's a "want", not a "need".

Well, I fully disagree but that is ok... .

Yes, there is a few iconic synths riff but they were buried in non electronic arrangement (singers, sometimes drummer, guitarists, and so on). So basically your point is NOT made, expressivity was just given by other parts of the arrangement. And in the 80s, synths were unheard of in this state that's why.

Now I understand that your style of music is EBM. I have nothing about it... But it sounds like 80s... To the core...
Then I am not surprised you don't hear it... My father didn't neither... No big deal. They don't need you, you don't need them...

It is clearly a want indeed. Not a need. It just make the things easier. Ableton doesn't have it and still lots of crazy good stuffs are made out of it.

But maybe a new genre will appear because of it... We never know. While we are discussing, the next genius is maybe discovering something very new... Like for electric guitar in rock, delay in reggae, and so on and so forth.

[liquidsound]

As you said very well yourself, the most important point, beyond a sequencer, is actually the instrument. Its sound of course but beyond that and more importantly, the way it is played.

That's demonstrably untrue, given that most classic synths had very little opportunity to vary the sound by the way you played it, yet great music was still made.

We can take as an example the Jazz fans

Yes, take them away where nobody has to deal with that shite. Horrid, self-indulgent wankery.

I will summarise all that by expressivity (maybe there is a better word, but I am not native...).

There are so many ways to be expressive that every DAW can manage at least as well as any other. There is nothing in Bitwig's modulation set-up that could not be reproduce din another DAW using simple automation if you needed to do it. So teh "need" is modulation, the way Bitwig does it might be the best way to achieve it but it's just a "want". Similarly, if I wanted to build an arrangement on the fly in Studio One, I can do that easily without anything even resembling a clip launcher. So the "need" is to be able to build an arrangement on the fly, a clip launcher is merely a "want".

But it speed with people like Mirwais or later Amon Tobin, they have introduced a new level of refinement of expressivity in electronic music which has become mainstream with Skrillex and other dubstepers....

Really? I'm not hearing it. They use so much distortion that any expressivity is likely crushed beyond the ability to discern it.

Now I consider Bitwig is the natural brainchild of this approach.

Why? All that stuff was being done long before Bitwig was a thing, so clearly it's a "want", not a "need".

Well, I fully disagree but that is ok... .

Yes, there is a few iconic synths riff but they were buried in non electronic arrangement (singers, sometimes drummer, guitarists, and so on). So basically your point is NOT made, expressivity was just given by other parts of the arrangement. And in the 80s, synths were unheard of in this state that's why.

Now I understand that your style of music is EBM. I have nothing about it... But it sounds like 80s... To the core...
Then I am not surprised you don't hear it... My father didn't neither... No big deal. They don't need you, you don't need them...

It is clearly a want indeed. Not a need. It just make the things easier. Ableton doesn't have it and still lots of crazy good stuffs are made out of it.

But maybe a new genre will appear because of it... We never know. While we are discussing, the next genius is maybe discovering something very new... Like for electric guitar in rock, delay in reggae, and so on and so forth.

Of course Ableton has it. It’s implemented in a different way and actually the project level modulation was there way before Bitwig. Of course you will add the glorified “per voice” etc…. And so we can discuss M4L or groove pool, comping, Push 3 etc.

Comparing DAWs is fun but it’s irrelevant if the user’s needs are not covered or the extras are useless.

[Jac459]

Well, I fully agree that it is irrelevant.... But if you didn't do it yet you should really try modulations in bitwig because comparing them to ableton is like comparing a beach in Seychelles vs one in the North of France, same but not the same....

Ableton on the other hand has a ton of very cool unique features, like the push 3 which is damn sexy.... so yes, it is irrelevant to compare, just fun.

[machinesworking]

The extra step is for STOPPING recording (while still keeping playing) for the practice runs, nothing to do with the actual recording later.

I didn't say anything about being better than other DAWs, I was just providing a one-click solution, simpler ands faster than adding empty space and placing clicks WAV files before the punch-in point.

No I got it, I don’t want to be thinking about stopping the recording while the click is playing, I’m practicing for the rhythm and tempo of the song, count in to me means count in, not hit something on the screen while the clicks are going.

But I do get you were trying to be helpful, I just don’t agree that it’s a trivial concern. I just want my DAW to do basic things like count off in various ways without workarounds.