UAD still worth it?

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Effects Discussion
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jens wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:03 pm
jamcat wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:06 pm Each drum mic gets a channel, which means a Tape Machine instance for each, because that’s how you would record drums.
Nope lad, of course not.

At least not for the bulk of the analog decades - they comitted lad, they commited.
(i.e. Only because they used (say) ten mics that did not at all mean they neccessarily recorded these onto ten tape tracks lad - after all that's what mixing desks are for, you see?)

Still in the 70's they typically mixed it down to four to six tracks (so before that they never used more than max three tracks) - but personally I'm always using the Decades SDX and Al Schmitt to his last working day mixed drums down to something like three tracks... )
and especially since I of course have SD's built-in mixer to adjust levels, I'm perfectly fine with stereo. So it's one instance of the 24 and I'm golden. ;-)

The blueprint that I go by is how it was done in the '80s and early '90s, which would see individual drum channels to their own tape tracks. Toms might be panned and recorded on a single stereo pair rather than individually, and hi-hats might not have their own mic, but you're still going to have separate tracks for kick and snare, and stereo pairs for toms, overheads and perhaps the room. So you're still at easily 7 or 8 tracks for drums. I do a close mic on hats and ride as well.

Drums weren't regularly recorded with the Glyn Johns method or as a stereo (or mono) submix since 24-track recording went into wide use, which was by the mid '70s.
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How do you simulate the Console Channel Crosstalk, also the Multitrack Crosstalk? Is there anything out there that can do this?
You can be creative in any right place on Earth, and not only in the wealthiest cities. Bring the world feelings from everywhere, and not only feelings of capitalistic or jail environment.
― Aleksey Vaneev


https://linuxdaw.org

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El°HYM wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:49 pm How do you simulate the Console Channel Crosstalk, also the Multitrack Crosstalk? Is there anything out there that can do this?

I use Studio One Pro 6. PreSonus sells proprietary Mix Engine FX for it that do crosstalk. I typically use the SSL 4000 model ("Vintage") in the Brit Console from the "Retro Mix Legends" Mix FX, in conjunction with bx_console SSL 4000 E on my "Mixing Console" channels. "Super" models the SL-9000 "Superanalogue" console, and "Modern" is a VHD+ preamp.

Image


PreSonus also has vintage Neve, API and REDD Mix FX models, and even a Tascam PortaStudio.

PreSonus wrote: What’s a Mix Engine Effect?

Unlike traditional VSTs and effects that can only affect one Channel or Bus at a time, activating Mix Engine FX on any bus in Studio One—including the Main—will automatically affect and cross-process all channels feeding that bus. This lateral cross-processing of Studio One’s entire Console— when combined with PreSonus’ proprietary State Space Modeling technology—has allowed us to create incredibly natural, nuanced, and authentic-sounding digital models of venerated analog equipment behavior including: drive, crosstalk, noise, saturation… even tape speed!
https://shop.presonus.com/Retro-Mix-Legends
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Thats pretty neat. We have Sonimus and Klanghelm, maybe some others, but they usually just offering Stereo Crosstalk. How does the Presonus Thing work for you?
You can be creative in any right place on Earth, and not only in the wealthiest cities. Bring the world feelings from everywhere, and not only feelings of capitalistic or jail environment.
― Aleksey Vaneev


https://linuxdaw.org

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It works really well. You can dial in crosstalk from an imperceptible amount, up to a very large amount that completely alters the stereo image of the song. The crosstalk itself is proximity-based, so the crosstalk in any given channel is coming mostly from the channels on either side of it. It really has an effect of sounding more like a real console.
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Incredible feature and also replicating what actually happened inside the Console and Multitrack. Hopefully other DAW - Developers will implement something similar in the future, but not sure either as I often just receive Big ???'s about this Topic. I believe it plays a significant part in what people are referring to as Depth & Glue.
You can be creative in any right place on Earth, and not only in the wealthiest cities. Bring the world feelings from everywhere, and not only feelings of capitalistic or jail environment.
― Aleksey Vaneev


https://linuxdaw.org

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El°HYM wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:20 am Incredible feature and also replicating what actually happened inside the Console and Multitrack. Hopefully other DAW - Developers will implement something similar in the future, but not sure either as I often just receive Big ???'s about this Topic. I believe it plays a significant part in what people are referring to as Depth & Glue.
Harrison Mixbus does something similar, I think. UAD LUNA might(?)
I don't really see other DAWs ever doing something like this. Least of all the likes of Ableton or Bitwig. And while some developers pay lip service to "analogue modeling" it only goes as far as marketing and GUIs. If you want this kind of effect, you just need to use Studio One, plain and simple.

I was using Studio One before Mix Engine FX existed, but I can say it is now one of the biggest selling points of Studio One as a DAW. And yes, it does play a significant part in creating "depth & glue."

I've found subtle layers of transformer THD and tape saturation at different stages of the mix, Brainworx's TMT, and Mix FX crosstalk all together create the most complete illusion. The key though is subtlety. On any given track in solo, you might struggle to hear any effect at all, but when you bypass it across the entire mix, it suddenly goes flat and lifeless.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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jamcat wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:17 pm
El°HYM wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:49 pm How do you simulate the Console Channel Crosstalk, also the Multitrack Crosstalk? Is there anything out there that can do this?

I use Studio One Pro 6. PreSonus sells proprietary Mix Engine FX for it that do crosstalk. I typically use the SSL 4000 model ("Vintage") in the Brit Console from the "Retro Mix Legends" Mix FX, in conjunction with bx_console SSL 4000 E on my "Mixing Console" channels. "Super" models the SL-9000 "Superanalogue" console, and "Modern" is a VHD+ preamp.

Image


PreSonus also has vintage Neve, API and REDD Mix FX models, and even a Tascam PortaStudio.

PreSonus wrote: What’s a Mix Engine Effect?

Unlike traditional VSTs and effects that can only affect one Channel or Bus at a time, activating Mix Engine FX on any bus in Studio One—including the Main—will automatically affect and cross-process all channels feeding that bus. This lateral cross-processing of Studio One’s entire Console— when combined with PreSonus’ proprietary State Space Modeling technology—has allowed us to create incredibly natural, nuanced, and authentic-sounding digital models of venerated analog equipment behavior including: drive, crosstalk, noise, saturation… even tape speed!
https://shop.presonus.com/Retro-Mix-Legends
Do these PreSonus plugins only work in Studio One, or also in other DAWs? Hard to tell with a cursory look.

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MogwaiBoy wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:10 am Do these PreSonus plugins only work in Studio One, or also in other DAWs? Hard to tell with a cursory look.
Studio One only. As I said, Mix Engine FX are proprietary to Studio One. Most Mix FX plugins are made by PreSonus, but some plugins, such as Softube Tape, have special Mix Engine FX versions for Studio One users.
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El°HYM wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:25 pm Wouldnt it be Mic>Console>Multitrack and then Multitrack>Console>2-Track?
maybe Mic > preamp emulation > compressor > console emulation > multitrack > console > 2 trak

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kanoharuayu wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:14 am
El°HYM wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:25 pm Wouldnt it be Mic>Console>Multitrack and then Multitrack>Console>2-Track?
maybe Mic > preamp emulation > compressor > console emulation > multitrack > console > 2 trak
I use a console channel emulation with preamp modeling for the tracking console. Usually the Lindell Audio Neve 80 series emulation.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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jamcat wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:47 pm Drums weren't regularly recorded with the Glyn Johns method or as a stereo (or mono) submix since 24-track recording went into wide use, which was by the mid '70s.
lol

You are confusing things big time here... the Glyn Johns method is a miking technique that uses only 2-4 mics for a full drum-kit - this has absolutely nothing to do with miking a drum-kit with any number of microphones which then get mixed down to 2-6 channels for recording.

When they had 24tracks they weren't very likely to waste ten of them just for the drums.

You have to keep in mind that these 24tracks had to store everything - all the ideas they tried out but ended up not using. (of course they'd also sometimes erase these things, but of course not if they weren't sure they might still need them).

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El°HYM wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:20 am Incredible feature and also replicating what actually happened inside the Console and Multitrack. Hopefully other DAW - Developers will implement something similar in the future, but not sure either as I often just receive Big ???'s about this Topic. I believe it plays a significant part in what people are referring to as Depth & Glue.
nah... personally I don't think so... but Sknote Strip has it so it doesn't cost you much to try it out yourself in your mixes and make up your own mind about it. :-)

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jamcat wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:07 am
El°HYM wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:20 am Incredible feature and also replicating what actually happened inside the Console and Multitrack. Hopefully other DAW - Developers will implement something similar in the future, but not sure either as I often just receive Big ???'s about this Topic. I believe it plays a significant part in what people are referring to as Depth & Glue.
Harrison Mixbus does something similar, I think. UAD LUNA might(?)
I don't really see other DAWs ever doing something like this. Least of all the likes of Ableton or Bitwig. And while some developers pay lip service to "analogue modeling" it only goes as far as marketing and GUIs. If you want this kind of effect, you just need to use Studio One, plain and simple.

I was using Studio One before Mix Engine FX existed, but I can say it is now one of the biggest selling points of Studio One as a DAW. And yes, it does play a significant part in creating "depth & glue."

I've found subtle layers of transformer THD and tape saturation at different stages of the mix, Brainworx's TMT, and Mix FX crosstalk all together create the most complete illusion. The key though is subtlety. On any given track in solo, you might struggle to hear any effect at all, but when you bypass it across the entire mix, it suddenly goes flat and lifeless.
Not a Harrison fan at all to be honest. Another Option would be going out of the Box and using analog summing, but even while elegant on its own, a bit pricey too.
You can be creative in any right place on Earth, and not only in the wealthiest cities. Bring the world feelings from everywhere, and not only feelings of capitalistic or jail environment.
― Aleksey Vaneev


https://linuxdaw.org

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kanoharuayu wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:14 am
El°HYM wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 8:25 pm Wouldnt it be Mic>Console>Multitrack and then Multitrack>Console>2-Track?
maybe Mic > preamp emulation > compressor > console emulation > multitrack > console > 2 trak
I was assuming a Console with Mic Pre's and compressor e.g. SSL or something, in Reply to Jamcat's Workflow. But you are definitely right here.
Last edited by El°HYM on Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
You can be creative in any right place on Earth, and not only in the wealthiest cities. Bring the world feelings from everywhere, and not only feelings of capitalistic or jail environment.
― Aleksey Vaneev


https://linuxdaw.org

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