Help me understand saturation and its uses please

[Teksonik]

I seek both 'warmth' and 'clarity'.

To me those are conflicting goals.

I do not think saturation/harmonic saturation is by default muddying or/and smearing.

Do not think or do not know?

"Tape saturation plugins emulate the sound of audio recorded through tape machines. They introduce odd order harmonics, subtle compression, and non-linear shifts in frequency response. Tape saturation also rolls off high-end frequencies and creates a small boost in the lows".

Look I get it, "analog" is all the rage these days but many times people who tout analog sound as a worthwhile goal have never used analog gear.

I just don't want people who are new to music production to automatically swallow the red pill and think they are obligated to chase the analog dragon.

I have owned an used analog gear and have recorded to multitrack analog tape and it's not something I see any value in emulating. But then I don't do "Lo-Fi" or "Retro" etc so that certainly factors in to my opinion.

I have tried saturation plugins and they invariably make my music sound muddy and smeared and that's where my opinion comes from, hands on experience with my own source material.

Of course use whatever ever tools you like but be sure you're using them for the right reasons and not just because they are the fad du jour or de rigueur.

That's all I'm saying.......

[elxsound]

I seek both 'warmth' and 'clarity'.

To me those are conflicting goals.

I do not think saturation/harmonic saturation is by default muddying or/and smearing.

Do not think or do not know?

"Tape saturation plugins emulate the sound of audio recorded through tape machines. They introduce odd order harmonics, subtle compression, and non-linear shifts in frequency response. Tape saturation also rolls off high-end frequencies and creates a small boost in the lows".

Look I get it, "analog" is all the rage these days but many times people who tout analog sound as a worthwhile goal have never used analog gear.

I just don't want people who are new to music production to automatically swallow the red pill and think they are obligated to chase the analog dragon.

I have owned an used analog gear and have recorded to multitrack analog tape and it's not something I see any value in emulating. But then I don't do "Lo-Fi" or "Retro" etc so that certainly factors in to my opinion.

I have tried saturation plugins and they invariably make my music sound muddy and smeared and that's where my opinion comes from, hands on experience with my own source material.

Of course use whatever ever tools you like but be sure you're using them for the right reasons and not just because they are the fad du jour or de rigueur.

That's all I'm saying.......

Is tape the only type of saturation that you know of, is there more?

Is saturation only limited to analog emulations, or are there additional options?

Are there only odd harmonics, or are there even harmonics too?

You can definitely create the argument for muddying things if you don’t know what you’re doing, but saturation is not exclusively lofi production.

This is one of the arguments that can hurt people more than it helps someone just starting out because someone reading about this might believe your years of experience carry weight,but I’m sorry it just doesn’t on this topic because your argument is far too narrow to be applicable to the ways saturation is used.

I already included the link to Joshua Jaycen, but you can look up just about any major mixing engineer and you’ll find use of saturation in major releases that are known for sounding clear.

[donkey tugger]

I already included the link to Joshua Jaycen, but you can look up just about any major mixing engineer and you’ll find use of saturation in major releases that are known for sounding clear.

Spike Stent (who's done a few things now and then...) is another one. Likes to push the hardware/plug-ins and famously bemoaned that newer SSL consoles are 'too clean'.

[elxsound]

I already included the link to Joshua Jaycen, but you can look up just about any major mixing engineer and you’ll find use of saturation in major releases that are known for sounding clear.

Spike Stent (who's done a few things now and then...) is another one. Likes to push the hardware/plug-ins and famously bemoaned that newer SSL consoles are 'too clean'.

Nice resumé!

I’m going to need to check his stuff out too.

[bmanic]

I do have Kirchhoff actually, if you'd like to post a pic of your patch, might be less hassle.

These are all intriguing ideas, I'll likely try out every one of them. Thank you for being so generous with your knowledge and experience.

You can download the Kirchoff EQ presets from here:

UAD Iron Oxide compensation curves for Kirchoff EQ (Google Drive, ZIP file, 17kb)

[jens]

I have tried saturation plugins and they invariably make my music sound muddy and smeared and that's where my opinion comes from, hands on experience with my own source material.

Look, with a unusual opinion like yours that pretty drastically contradicts our own experiences...

you are basically inviting people to give all kinds of... uncharming replies to a sentence such as this.

I'll try to reply as neutrally as possible:

Your results depend both on the actual material you mix and your own mixing skills
to a far greater degree that they depend on the tools you use.



Also saying both "warmth" and "clarity" would contradict each other is quite a...
either confident or ignorant statement.

I don't know what your definition of both terms is, however you seem to be quite certain that a) yours is the valid one and b) those who agree with it don't know what they are talking about when they claim they want both (warmth and clarity).

In general, in my opinion mixing is always about balance. Saying you can't have both seems to me like saying you can't have both bass and treble in a mix.

And thus going by my own definition of these terms there's countless of famous productions that possess both traits in spades. I'll just name DSOTM as one example and I would think you'd be hard pressed to find many who'd disagree with me here.

So, you may disagree with that - but... - and I mean you may voice your disagreement all you like - how come you seem to be so confident that your - quite unusual - opinion is the more valid or right one?

[elxsound]

He’s likely to point out how that’s from 1973.

The whole 60s/70s statement.

[jamcat]

I'm also having some fun with some tape saturation on the master bus, I've got UADs Oxide tape sim and IK's Tape 80 or whatever it's called. They both sound amazing but I think they're too strong an effect to have on every channel, or am I wrong about that? It just seems like it would be too much, too much added bass, too much distortion of the original signal.

I use tape simulation on every channel. When I was using IK Tape Machines, I was mostly using the JH24 model. The key is to leave everything at default. Use your plugins before the tape to drive the level.

I’m using the UAD Studer A800 now, in part because it uses a fraction of the CPU the IK tapes do. For the UAD, I boost the input by 1.5dB, just to keep the level about the same. Other than that, everything stays at default. You don’t get too much distortion as long as you keep the levels moderate.

I'm currently using Tape Machines 440 on my Master buss, but will probably switch to Ampex ATR-102 if and when Universal Audio ports it to native. I probably would have stuck with the IK Tape Machines had IK updated them with an eco mode.

[camsr]

Does anyone remember watching on Cathode Ray Tube screens?

[whyterabbyt]

Does anyone remember watching on Cathode Ray Tube screens?

Last time I saw anything on a proper CRT was, oooh, maybe 3-4 months ago... we have a couple of dozen. But honestly, they looked warmer when the rest of the electronics was tubes too.

[jens]

The key is to leave everything at default.

Nah, it isn't...

[Teksonik]

Is tape the only type of saturation that you know of, is there more?

I was addressing this part of the OP:

Moving to digital recording from tape back in the day was amazing and pristine noiseless recordings were pure bliss.

Yes there are other types of saturation but tape saturation is the one that seems to be the most prevalent myth as to something worth achieving. Just look at the myriad of tape saturation plugins on the market as proof.

This is one of the arguments that can hurt people more than it helps someone just starting out because someone reading about this might believe your years of experience carry weight,but I’m sorry it just doesn’t on this topic because your argument is far too narrow to be applicable to the ways saturation is used.

My position and advice all along has been to make sure you're using saturation for the right reason....because you think it makes things sound better and not just because you read some article on the internet. Do the tests, put in the work. A/B a track with and without saturation. Make up your own mind and don't let those who have swallowed the red pill influence you.

Again, I know that chasing the analog dragon is the fad these days. I just don't want people to automatically fall for the hype.

I also know anyone who dares to push back against the analog myth will be vilified with things like "you don't know what you're doing" and so on. You've proven my point quite well.

Again use what works best for you. Just don't use something because it's a fad and considered de rigueur.

That's all I'm saying. If that triggers the analog troglodytes then so be it....

[elxsound]

No analog vs digital arguments.

These are tools and it’s about learning when and how to use them.

Definitely not about fads either. Saturation techniques have been used in music production since it started.

Mentioned earlier, CPU processing is much improved and so is the ability of developers to make software. Marketing is what it is.

Maybe it’s good to know not to fall for marketing hype just as much as it’s good to know, don’t avoid something because of the marketing hype.

[Teksonik]

Look, with a unusual opinion like yours that pretty drastically contradicts our own experiences...
you are basically inviting people to give all kinds of... uncharming replies to a sentence such as this.

Oh yes I realize pushing back against the analog myth is quite unpopular with the red pill crowd. That's why I do it....to provide another way of looking at things so people just don't mindlessly buy into the myth that analog is something worth chasing.

Your results depend both on the actual material you mix and your own mixing skills
to a far greater degree that they depend on the tools you use.

Absolutely, skills are most important but I can turn that right back around on you. Perhaps it is the lack of mixing skills that convinces people to use saturation.

Also saying both "warmth" and "clarity" would contradict each other is quite a...either confident or ignorant statement.

And saying they don't contradict is also a "confident or ignorant statement". See where this is going?

how come you seem to be so confident that your - quite unusual - opinion is the more valid or right one?

How come you seem to be so confident that your common opinion "is the more valid or right one"? just because it is common?

I'm confident in my opinion because I've put the work in, I've done the tests, I have the receipts. Once again all I'm saying to everyone and especially anyone new to music making now is do your own tests on your own tracks to see if saturation is something worthwhile or just snake oil.

So I've said what I have to say and at this point it will only devolve into an endless circular debate. So I will wish everyone a nice day and I'm out.

[elxsound]

Cool, cool, cool…

What I’ll suggest is seeing how others use saturation before just adding it and turning knobs, or listening to random posters on KVR.

Context is extremely important. I think so especially in terms of saturation since quite often it is used subtly, and when used at more extremes, there’s a reason for it.

I stumbled on this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mixingmasterin ... n-youtube/

Lots of resources and names of people to dig down into and get some professional advice, as much as you want or don’t want.

Should help ending circular debates.