DAW developer focus. As end-user what should it be?

[chk071]

No upgrade scheme which urges you to shell out 150 € every 2 years.

So the developers should not get paid for new features ?

The developers, or, rather, CEOs shouldn't do a strict "one major upgrade per 2 years" policy to keep the money rolling in. Think about new features, and implement them, and do a new major version when you think it's ready, not every 2 years just make sure the cash flows in. That's not how it used to be 10 or 15 years ago. This new version policy (Cubase and Studio One are some of the more major examples) is just to sell new stuff, not based on "We think this new feature set justifies a new version", otherwise they would maybe do a new major version every 4 or 5 years.

I know, I know, the people want new and shiny, and, it's best for these people who are so willing to part with their money. But, it's not good for people like me, who don't spend a fortune and their hobby, and really don't need a gazillion of new features. AND, it will also create bloat, and, I hate bloat in software. You don't need every single features all the others have in your software. It is MUCH better to have a streamlined, specialized software.

[koalaboy]

I know, I know, the people want new and shiny, and, it's best for these people who are so willing to part with their money. But, it's not good for people like me, who don't spend a fortune and their hobby, and really don't need a gazillion of new features. AND, it will also create bloat, and, I hate bloat in software. You don't need every single features all the others have in your software. It is MUCH better to have a streamlined, specialized software.

So don't upgrade. Just spend when you need what is on offer. I agree 100% but don't remove options for other folk that may want it.

I tend to only upgrade when I feel like it, and mostly support companies that release on a similar principal.

[chk071]

I know, I know, the people want new and shiny, and, it's best for these people who are so willing to part with their money. But, it's not good for people like me, who don't spend a fortune and their hobby, and really don't need a gazillion of new features. AND, it will also create bloat, and, I hate bloat in software. You don't need every single features all the others have in your software. It is MUCH better to have a streamlined, specialized software.

So don't upgrade. Just spend when you need what is on offer.

That's what I do. I will still end up with bloat which just has been implemented to sell new versions though, when I decide to upgrade one day.

What I'm saying is that I don't like this development. It's just made to sell, sell, sell. Yes, understandable, but, where does it end? A new paid major version of Cubase every half year soon?

[jens]

Jeez - now that is some pointless nay-saying!

Not the first time you come up with extremely ego-centric nonsense like that either... it's as if you were completely oblivious to the fact that you share this world with others who might have needs, desires and requirements different from yours.

[chk071]

Not the first time you come up with extremely ego-centric nonsense like that either... it's as if you were completely oblivious to the fact that you share this world with others who might have needs, desires and requirements different from yours.

I would be curious as to what these are precisely, and how yearly or two-yearly paid major versions satisfy these.

Or maybe we should differentiate those: Desires and needs. A desire could be as small and void as "I want something new". I hope you realize that there are loads of money made with that these days.

[koalaboy]

What I'm saying is that I don't like this development. It's just made to sell, sell, sell. Yes, understandable, but, where does it end? A new paid major version of Cubase every half year soon?

Unfortunately, in many cases, it will end up with a 'subscription service' as that's the end goal for most tech companies, are audio software is no different. It's an 'easy' business model, as it has regular income rather than putting in a lot of R&D and then hoping enough people upgrade/buy.

I hate the software industry these days - having worked in it for over 30 years - as it's all about 'fast iteration' and 'growth', and the bigger the company the more this happens (more product managers, and more expectations from investors).

The best bet is smaller, privately-owned companies, who are not beholden to anyone but themselves. Support them, and encourage others to, as they are the most likely to also care about the customer.

Software is a commodity nowadays - nothing more. It really shows the value of folks like Urs and others - the developers that are truly built on passion, with a side of 'profit', and not the other way around. Support these folks, as once they're gone all you are left with is .. corporate hell.

[chk071]

What I'm saying is that I don't like this development. It's just made to sell, sell, sell. Yes, understandable, but, where does it end? A new paid major version of Cubase every half year soon?

Unfortunately, in many cases, it will end up with a 'subscription service' as that's the end goal for most tech companies, are audio software is no different. It's an 'easy' business model, as it has regular income rather than putting in a lot of R&D and then hoping enough people upgrade/buy.

That's exactly how many of the DAWs business models appear to me - like a subscription.

Of course, one doesn't have to upgrade. But, especially when you use Mac OS, you actually have to, or the software might not work on your new Mac. Bummer.

Wouldn't happen if your major DAW version is supported for 5 years or something.

[koalaboy]

That's exactly how many of the DAWs business models appear to me - like a subscription.

Of course, one doesn't have to upgrade. But, especially when you use Mac OS, you actually have to, or the software might not work on your new Mac.

The OS is going the same way - yes. It's 'safe' money - easy to plan and watch the trends.

R&D is very expensive, especially for bigger companies (despite them cutting costs/people) and there's too much risk to their profit to wait too long. Investors/shareholders are more impatient than customers, and hold the power. So release time shorten.

The entire software industry, as mentioned previously, is wanting to get things out quicker and quicker - realise the 'value' before the customer realises there isn't much, and then move on the next. We've just seen Apple launch new 'better' machines, only 6 months after the last game-changers.

Everyone is looking to get their profits out quickly, while they still can. It's going to be a crazy ride and won't end well for many. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more- ... 1-de4fca2a

And then AI is going to make it even more crazy.

The 'good old days' are behind us - strap in for the new ultra-fast roller-coaster ride.

[jens]

I would be curious as to what these are precisely, and how yearly or two-yearly paid major versions satisfy these.

These most obviously differ depending on whom you ask - so what people get is always some sort of compromise - which is so obviously the case that I feel dirty just writing it nonetheless.

You'll - perhaps slightly less obviously - likely get something resembling a normal distribution regarding satisfaction with an upgrade. And your own individual position on that curve is *cough* irrelevant.

[VOODOO U]

The best bet is smaller, privately-owned companies, who are not beholden to anyone but themselves. Support them, and encourage others to, as they are the most likely to also care about the customer.

Nah this isn't a bullet proof vest.
Camel audio? Great stuff, supported it, got bought by apple, PC users got screwed. So much for caring about the customer.
EnergyXT was once upon a time a DAW that was a game player. Even Behrinnger got on board with it and what happened? Jorgen let the KVR community get to his head and us license holders were left with shit. And EXT64 can suck it as far as I'm concerned.
Liveslice, very promising app and, well, unfortunately the developer wasn't making enough to support it any further.
Those of us who supported it were left with shit.
Plogue Bidule, I've got a license collecting dust. I won't get into what can be improved, the point is they don't care what users want. It's the same app today as it was 20 years ago. Bravo Plogue!
This is personal expereince with specific developers, i undrestand that, but the point is support of smaller independent developers isn't the best bet.
People need to make money. That's the bottom line. Whatever it takes to make money perennially is what wins. How a developer achieves that is by offering something of value and that doesn't mean giving the people what they want all the time.
People get bored. Make them beg for it.

[jens]

EnergyXT was once upon a time a DAW that was a game player. Even Behrinnger got on board with it and what happened? Jorgen let the KVR community get to his head and us license holders were left with shit. And EXT64 can suck it as far as I'm concerned.

Nah, that's not at all what happened - and Behringer only licensed XT2 at some point by the way, never the original energyXT...

[VOODOO U]

Yeah that's what i said, behrinnger got on board with EnergyXT. Doesn't matter how they got on board, or at what release. The point is they did.
And Jorgen attempted to survive outside the KVR community. It failed. He had no support outside KVR.

[koalaboy]

People need to make money.

People need to make a living. Some are happy and willing to follow their passion such that they make just enough (or maybe a bit more), whilst others simply follow the money. It can be hard to tell the difference, as often the line is blurred and marketing can be mistaken for passion.

It's never clear cut, and some bigger companies still maintain that dedication to the user rather than to the investors (this doesn't mean they give the customer everything they want, especially as they have more customers, but that the original vision is held above that of the profit).

I welcome those who make money from selling a product - but the vision should be the product, not just more money. Serial Entrepreneurs are terrible, because they are always chasing the 'next' thing. I will support companies that plan to keep their products stable, with occasional innovation, rather than a new version 'just because'. Each person has to find their own path - many just want the latest 'shiny' each upgrade (and modern marketing is designed to make you want that - there is so much pyschology involved nowadays).

People need to survive, and to make enough money to live. Beyond that, it comes down to whether they do what they do for the vision - a passion to build something that fits their ideal - or to make 'more' money, and grow a business. Both can work, but those in the former category are far more likely to get my support.

Do you make music to create/express yourself, or just to make money ?

Which of the above applies to somebody like Taylor Swift, these days ?

[VOODOO U]

A DAW should be a programming language so the end user can design it anyway they like.

Then this is your DAW: https://sonic-pi.net

demo:

Had a chance to check this out today and see it's a wrapper for Supercollider i think? Anyhow it doesn't "design" a DAW. It's basically another way to create music.
Regardless, I like the microtonal capabilities and it seems to be like Ableton Live's session view on steroids.
Then again I'm sure Live can do everything this app can do using Max4.
It goes back to workflow preferences.

[jens]

Yeah that's what i said, behrinnger got on board with EnergyXT. Doesn't matter how they got on board, or at what release. The point is they did.

Why is that the point?

energyXT originally referred to the abandoned application by the way of which the last version was 1.4 and that was the one that was highly successfull and revered.

Its successor was called XT2. Only later on it got called energyXT again. Behringer never "got on board" with the original energyXT.

And Jorgen attempted to survive outside the KVR community. It failed. He had no support outside KVR.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. The downfall of energyXT/XT2 has completely different reasons which you obviously know nothing about. I could lay it out for you but I doubt you really wanna know...