Ableton 12 - Generative MIDI, Multiband Distortion and more

[liquidsound]

Ah yes, healthy discussion about two similar DAWs, must be hijacking by fanboys

It's always, Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim. It's all, Bitwig does it all without that Ableton magic . . . with a zillion devices, lol. I own both. Bitwig is good but they pretend it does everything as well as Ableton.

So much for "Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim" eh

...I switched to Bitwig because even without all of the bells and whistles like the Grid, MIDI Operators and deep, native modulation system etc., it's still the better DAW imo. Features like per clip bounce, place and multiclip fading, clips as containers for events, plugin sandboxing, full signal path PDC and so on, aren't very sexy but they make for a much better basic DAW experience and in the end, I believe that counts for more then esoteric features and shiny new toys, the latter Ableton already has a well-earned reputation for providing.

Bitwig is better at being a simple, stable, functioning DAW and these are the reasons why I think this. It's relevant to the discussion, because a new version of Live has been announced and it is still missing the most simple of the aforementioned features and it's frustrating because I would like to use it more, but it feels like such a potato by comparison.

I accept updates won't please everyone, the Grid in Bitwig for example, wasn't/still isn't for everyone, but surely a large part of the userbase will benefit from industry standard editing features/workflow, so why so much resistance from Ableton to implement them? For example, Live knows what clips are, you can export a MIDI clip for example, you can export audio in Live and you can create a new track, so why can't the dev team make it so that you can do all three with a single keystroke (like you can in every other DAW since forever)?!

Wait… is still impossible to export individual MIDI clip in Bitwig?
I’m still a 4.3.1 so maybe such “universal” feature is now available in 5.1?

[jules99]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

[mholloway]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

[jules99]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

 

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

 

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

 

[machinesworking]

Ableton "updates" have become a joke

v9 had real improvements in its lifespan and lasted years, but since v10 and v11, that has completely changed

Frequent expensive updates are the future for Ableton users

Live 9 lasted longer than any other version, its a significant outlier, so you're kinda cherry-picking there. In response its reasonable to point out that 10, and 11 have lasted at least double the time of any version prior to Live 8.

Live 1.0 30 October 2001
Live 2.0 22 December 2002 : 1 year 2 months later
Live 3 10 October 2003 : 10 months later
Live 4 28 July 2004 : 8 months later
Live 5 24 July 2005 : 12 months later
Live 6 29 September 2006 : : 1 year 2 months later
Live 7 29 November 2007 : 1 year 2 months later
Live 8 2 April 2009 : 1 year 5 months later
Live 9 5 March 2013 : 3 years 11 months later
Live 10 6 February 2018 : 4 years 11 months later
Live 11 23 February 2021 : 3 years later
Live 12 'early 2024' : minimum of 2 years 11 months later

Its also pretty fair to say that Ableton add a decent amount of new stuff in their free x.5 updates.

they were milking the cow pretty good in the first iterations of the software^^. pricings would be nice to see to make it more transparent compared to the last 3

To be fair, they weren't charging half as much for upgrades in the first 7 versions, from about $75-125, Suite changed that. It's still about the same price if you consider roughly 3 years between upgrades and updates in the middle of the cycle generally add almost as much as the upgrade.

[elxsound]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

 

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

 

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

 

Bounce in Place or Render in Place allows for rendering regions (not just whole tracks) with multiple options for what’s included on the output and what is done to the source region.

Logic:

[liquidsound]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

 

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

 

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

 

Bounce in Place or Render in Place allows for rendering regions (not just whole tracks) with multiple options for what’s included on the output and what is done to the source region.

Logic:

You can deactivate clips (or regions) you don’t want in the rendering.
You do loose those once the track is flatten, so depends on your needs.

[eclipxe]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

 

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

 

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

 

Bounce in Place or Render in Place allows for rendering regions (not just whole tracks) with multiple options for what’s included on the output and what is done to the source region.

Logic:

You can deactivate clips (or regions) you don’t want in the rendering.
You do loose those once the track is flatten, so depends on your needs.

It's not the same. From a workflow POV its not even close.

[xbitz]

Ah yes, healthy discussion about two similar DAWs, must be hijacking by fanboys

It's always, Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim. It's all, Bitwig does it all without that Ableton magic . . . with a zillion devices, lol. I own both. Bitwig is good but they pretend it does everything as well as Ableton.

So much for "Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim" eh

...I switched to Bitwig because even without all of the bells and whistles like the Grid, MIDI Operators and deep, native modulation system etc., it's still the better DAW imo. Features like per clip bounce, place and multiclip fading, clips as containers for events, plugin sandboxing, full signal path PDC and so on, aren't very sexy but they make for a much better basic DAW experience and in the end, I believe that counts for more then esoteric features and shiny new toys, the latter Ableton already has a well-earned reputation for providing.

Bitwig is better at being a simple, stable, functioning DAW and these are the reasons why I think this. It's relevant to the discussion, because a new version of Live has been announced and it is still missing the most simple of the aforementioned features and it's frustrating because I would like to use it more, but it feels like such a potato by comparison.

I accept updates won't please everyone, the Grid in Bitwig for example, wasn't/still isn't for everyone, but surely a large part of the userbase will benefit from industry standard editing features/workflow, so why so much resistance from Ableton to implement them? For example, Live knows what clips are, you can export a MIDI clip for example, you can export audio in Live and you can create a new track, so why can't the dev team make it so that you can do all three with a single keystroke (like you can in every other DAW since forever)?!

Wait… is still impossible to export individual MIDI clip in Bitwig?
I’m still a 4.3.1 so maybe such “universal” feature is now available in 5.1?

you can open a new tab anytime, needs only a single track

[miloszz]

You do loose those once the track is flatten, so depends on your needs.

Are there people who need to lose parts of a composition?

Every time BIP is mentioned re: Ableton people rush to its defense with the litany of half-baked solutions. "Freeze and flatten" is not a replacement for bouncing - for reasons like the above. (If it was... they'd call it bounce.) It's just a way to save CPU when that was a bigger issue.

The closest good solution is the Max4Live Bounce in Place device that automates parts of resampling but even then you've got to solo tracks, jump to the master track to start it, stop it. Many more steps that every other daw (that I'm aware of) accomplishes with two clicks.

I assume there's a technical reason Ableton can't add bounce in place/to new track or snap to zero crossings in the arrangement view. Maybe they fired the team that actually worked with the audio engine and lost the code.

[liquidsound]

Ah yes, healthy discussion about two similar DAWs, must be hijacking by fanboys

It's always, Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim. It's all, Bitwig does it all without that Ableton magic . . . with a zillion devices, lol. I own both. Bitwig is good but they pretend it does everything as well as Ableton.

So much for "Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim" eh

...I switched to Bitwig because even without all of the bells and whistles like the Grid, MIDI Operators and deep, native modulation system etc., it's still the better DAW imo. Features like per clip bounce, place and multiclip fading, clips as containers for events, plugin sandboxing, full signal path PDC and so on, aren't very sexy but they make for a much better basic DAW experience and in the end, I believe that counts for more then esoteric features and shiny new toys, the latter Ableton already has a well-earned reputation for providing.

Bitwig is better at being a simple, stable, functioning DAW and these are the reasons why I think this. It's relevant to the discussion, because a new version of Live has been announced and it is still missing the most simple of the aforementioned features and it's frustrating because I would like to use it more, but it feels like such a potato by comparison.

I accept updates won't please everyone, the Grid in Bitwig for example, wasn't/still isn't for everyone, but surely a large part of the userbase will benefit from industry standard editing features/workflow, so why so much resistance from Ableton to implement them? For example, Live knows what clips are, you can export a MIDI clip for example, you can export audio in Live and you can create a new track, so why can't the dev team make it so that you can do all three with a single keystroke (like you can in every other DAW since forever)?!

Wait… is still impossible to export individual MIDI clip in Bitwig?
I’m still a 4.3.1 so maybe such “universal” feature is now available in 5.1?

you can open a new tab anytime, needs only a single track

Workarounds. Every DAW must have them and according to the user and usage they may be OK or a PITA

I don’t mind workarounds unless they are needed on a regular basis. If that’s the case I will move on to another DAW that pleases my needs.

Live allows me to work as fast as possible and at the end of the day I complete my work and move on to the next.
Ableton is not perfect but man…! It’s a production monster for millions of users.

As I said recently, “it was in the air for a v12” and there is more in the pipeline

[PieBerger]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

 

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

 

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

 

Nice try but no. If you want the same workflow, you have to duplicate the track first and then freeze and flatten it or you have to freeze the track, then drag the frozen audio to a new track, then unfreeze it. That is not even close to selecting a clip and pressing a single button to create a new audio file, while keeping the original track in tact.

[elxsound]

You do loose those once the track is flatten, so depends on your needs.

Are there people who need to lose parts of a composition?

Every time BIP is mentioned re: Ableton people rush to its defense with the litany of half-baked solutions. "Freeze and flatten" is not a replacement for bouncing - for reasons like the above. (If it was... they'd call it bounce.) It's just a way to save CPU when that was a bigger issue.

The closest good solution is the Max4Live Bounce in Place device that automates parts of resampling but even then you've got to solo tracks, jump to the master track to start it, stop it. Many more steps that every other daw (that I'm aware of) accomplishes with two clicks.

I assume there's a technical reason Ableton can't add bounce in place/to new track or snap to zero crossings in the arrangement view. Maybe they fired the team that actually worked with the audio engine and lost the code.

Not a defense, since I know it’s not the same, but all one needs to do to not lose the source track is to duplicate first.

That’s been my workflow in Live for this.

So while it’s true BIP is not in Live, there are workarounds.

Sometimes what you’re encountering is people who don’t have the need for the same workflow and the back and forth stems from someone not finding it as important.

[liquidsound]

* bounce in place (just nice to have for me)

 

Bounce-in-place is there now, at least on a per-track basis.

 

Freezing entire tracks != bounce in place. So no, it's not there now.

 

Nice try but no. If you want the same workflow, you have to duplicate the track first and then freeze and flatten it or you have to freeze the track, then drag the frozen audio to a new track, then unfreeze it. That is not even close to selecting a clip and pressing a single button to create a new audio file, while keeping the original track in tact.

it will be better in the future…
In the meantime

https://maxforlive.com/library/device/4 ... e-in-place

[PieBerger]

Ah yes, healthy discussion about two similar DAWs, must be hijacking by fanboys

It's always, Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim. It's all, Bitwig does it all without that Ableton magic . . . with a zillion devices, lol. I own both. Bitwig is good but they pretend it does everything as well as Ableton.

So much for "Bitwig does it better, without supporting the claim" eh

...I switched to Bitwig because even without all of the bells and whistles like the Grid, MIDI Operators and deep, native modulation system etc., it's still the better DAW imo. Features like per clip bounce, place and multiclip fading, clips as containers for events, plugin sandboxing, full signal path PDC and so on, aren't very sexy but they make for a much better basic DAW experience and in the end, I believe that counts for more then esoteric features and shiny new toys, the latter Ableton already has a well-earned reputation for providing.

Bitwig is better at being a simple, stable, functioning DAW and these are the reasons why I think this. It's relevant to the discussion, because a new version of Live has been announced and it is still missing the most simple of the aforementioned features and it's frustrating because I would like to use it more, but it feels like such a potato by comparison.

I accept updates won't please everyone, the Grid in Bitwig for example, wasn't/still isn't for everyone, but surely a large part of the userbase will benefit from industry standard editing features/workflow, so why so much resistance from Ableton to implement them? For example, Live knows what clips are, you can export a MIDI clip for example, you can export audio in Live and you can create a new track, so why can't the dev team make it so that you can do all three with a single keystroke (like you can in every other DAW since forever)?!

Wait… is still impossible to export individual MIDI clip in Bitwig?
I’m still a 4.3.1 so maybe such “universal” feature is now available in 5.1?

It's not possible no and it's a pain, especially if you want to share a project material with someone else, but I'd argue it's less problematic than having to workaround limited audio editing capabilities during every session. I don't think myself or anyone else with the same feelings is being unreasonable in wanting improvements in this area. I'm not getting my knickers in a twist over complicated features like ARA or Dolby Atmos, I just want to be able to easily bounce a synth passage to audio, while keeping the original intact, chop it up into chunks, add multiple fades (to the end of clips, so as not to compromise the transient) if needed and to glue these chunks back together into a larger clip, for easier arrangement, without needing to create a new audio file each time. The DAW can already do a lot of these things, just not in a joined up way and that's what makes me want to bang my head against the wall everytime a new major or minor version is announced and they still haven't been implemented.