Input Issue

[ChiroVette]

Okay, first question before I get into all of this, is there an input trim somewhere in the DAW? I Googled it, and looked all over the channel options, including the expanded channel menu that you get when you click on the up-arrow on the left lower part of the screen.

I was considering using the Clip Gain, but I'm not sure that's what it is supposed to be used for. I can also raise up the fader for the channel itself, but this also seems like an inelegant solution, and I don't think it will fix the problem, unless I'm wrong.

Here's the long and short of it: The recorded volume when I create a guitar track is substantially lower in volume than what I am hearing in my headphones while playing and recording. To be clear, I had this same problem way back when I first came to the forum, but with different gear. Back then, when I wanted to record and electric guitar clip/part, I was using either a Shure SM57 or a Sennheisher e609 to mic the amp. Then I was using the Behringer U-Phorioa UMC204HD as a USB interface, both for my headphones and XLR inputs. I also had the volume problem when recording vocals.

Now I have a much different setup for my guitar. I purchased a Fractal FM9 (amp modeler and multi-effects) and when plugged into a USB interface on my Windows 11 PC, Waveform sees it as both an input and output device. So for now, I have no need for the U-Phora for this purpose. The headphones are now in the Headphones jack on the FM9, and the guitar is in the "Instrument" input, and it communicates beautifully with my PC, and for the first time in my life, no guitar amp necessary.

I just cannot, for the life of me, figure out why Tracktion changes the volume when it records a track from one of my inputs. If this were live, and I was using a mixer, I would just use the input trim on my board to dial up the input.

[Watchful]

If you're familiar with what everyone calls the "Useful" menu--the properties pane across the bottom of the screen (you can get there by clicking on the up arrow in the lower left)--you have some options there.

1. Get that pane up across the bottom.
2. Click on the input--you'll see some options to increase or decrease gain
3. Run some tests first! Obviously, that's the first step in gain staging.

You can also create a bounce track by routing your hot track into a bounce track, wherein the hot track has its output level bumped up at the fader. The bounce track then records the hot track at a louder level. If you have a compressor, limiter, or gain-matching plugin, you can get very even results if that's what your after. This is probably a lot more than what you're after, though.

[pough]

Here's the long and short of it: The recorded volume when I create a guitar track is substantially lower in volume than what I am hearing in my headphones while playing and recording.

If you are using your device's monitoring and Waveform's monitoring then you are listening to what you're inputting plus what you're recording.

[ChiroVette]

Thanks for the answers, guys!

If you're familiar with what everyone calls the "Useful" menu--the properties pane across the bottom of the screen (you can get there by clicking on the up arrow in the lower left)--you have some options there.

1. Get that pane up across the bottom.
2. Click on the input--you'll see some options to increase or decrease gain
3. Run some tests first! Obviously, that's the first step in gain staging.

I will check these options out first. I am really scratching my head, though, trying to figure out why across the board, whenever I input sound from an external device of any kind (vocal mic, guitar cabinet mic, or now the Fractal unit) Waveform consistently sounds different while I am recording or practicing compared to listening back to the mix after recording.

Shouldn't there be a consistency here? If what I am hearing in the cans is different than what it sounds like once I lay down the track, I can't imagine that's how it's supposed to be. The volume drop is marked.

You can also create a bounce track by routing your hot track into a bounce track, wherein the hot track has its output level bumped up at the fader. The bounce track then records the hot track at a louder level. If you have a compressor, limiter, or gain-matching plugin, you can get very even results if that's what your after. This is probably a lot more than what you're after, though.

Not sure I completely understand all this. Suffice it to say, though, I have the feeling that changing the channel volume in the Useful Menu or any other way may just be putting a Band-Aid on a larger problem.

If you are using your device's monitoring and Waveform's monitoring then you are listening to what you're inputting plus what you're recording.

I don't think this is an issue. Because I am not perceiving any doubling effect, and while recording, the headphones have the same balanced sound, whether I am practicing with Tracktion + Backing Track + FM9 and guitar or recording. If the process of recording were creating a perceptible aural doubling, then I should only hear it wile recording, not while only practicing.

[pough]

Because I am not perceiving any doubling effect

You're not perceiving double the volume? That's exactly what happens when you input monitor twice, once in the audio device and once in the DAW. I mean, it might be something else, but what I described will do what you described.

[ChiroVette]

You're not perceiving double the volume? That's exactly what happens when you input monitor twice, once in the audio device and once in the DAW.

I am probably not perceiving it because I'm not doing an A/B comparison, listening to one setup then immediately listening to the other. Unless you count when I start recording after arming the track versus listening before hitting record. It may be that if I listen while I play along with the tracks and my guitar, that the second I arm the track or start to record my guitar that I would notice it. I can check that when I get home from work today.

I mean, it might be something else, but what I described will do what you described.

What suggestion did you give? You seemed to be making an observation about my current situation. Is that what you meant? Or were you positing a possible solution?

[pough]

This is extremely confusing because the initially stated problem was, "the recorded volume when I create a guitar track is substantially lower in volume than what I am hearing in my headphones while playing and recording" which I took to mean that the monitored volume is higher than the recorded volume. But I guess that isn't the case.

You're right, though, that I didn't explicitly suggest a solution, so here it is: If you have monitoring on twice it will present an incorrect volume level to your ears so turn off one of the monitoring things, either the device's or Waveform's.

However, if you are not perceiving a volume problem, then what exactly is the problem that you are perceiving?

[ChiroVette]

However, if you are not perceiving a volume problem, then what exactly is the problem that you are perceiving?

The final recorded tracks are noticeably lower in volume. They sound fine while I am practicing or while I am actively recording. The final volume of the recorded track is definitely lower.

[Peter Widdicombe]

That's probably because what you hear while practicing is from the audio interface, which is mimicing the RAW INPUT to Waveform. However, you may be recording at a much reduced level and not noticing it. From that "useful display" see what your recording level actually is, and make sure it's at -6 to -3 or so... not at -15 or -20. If you're recording guitar direct (not through a mike), then take the headphones/monitoring off and listen via the waveform output; at least as a test.

[ChiroVette]

That's probably because what you hear while practicing is from the audio interface, which is mimicing the RAW INPUT to Waveform. However, you may be recording at a much reduced level and not noticing it. From that "useful display" see what your recording level actually is, and make sure it's at -6 to -3 or so... not at -15 or -20. If you're recording guitar direct (not through a mike), then take the headphones/monitoring off and listen via the waveform output; at least as a test.

I will check out the recording levels in the useful display when I boot up everything in an hour or two.

Although, I am not sure how to take the headphones monitoring off. I will say that my headphones aren't hooked up to the PC, since I am not using my U-Phoria when going in through the Fractal. The headphones are right into the headphone jack of the Fractal, and the audio output on Waveform is set to "FM9" and the audio input from the guitar channel in Waveform is also my "FM9".

[Peter Widdicombe]

On the fractal, do you also hear the backing track while recording (i.e. does Waveform playback through the Fractal to the headphones?). If so, you SHOULD really disable direct feedback from guitar to headphones within the fractal, so you get to hear the MIX including guitar, the way Waveform is playing it. However, in a brief read of the manual, they don't seem to have a simple way of doing it; probably assuming if you don't want to do that, you don't use headphones.

Sounds like if you wanted to do that, you'd have to plug guitar into something OTHER than input 1, which defaults to output 1 which the headphone always defaults to monitoring. If you plug into 2 or 3, then you can select the alternate input in WAVEFORM to record from, and then have the guitar as part of the overall mix in the Waveform output.

In the useful menu. on the track you intend to record, select "live input monitoring" to enable it from input to output. Turn that setting off, and the guitar should NOT be heard unless you are playing back. If you do, then the Fractal is ALSO internally feeding input 2 locally back to output 1, which is headphones. That's a really nice unit, but along with all it's capabilities comes a fairly steep learning curve to fully exploit it.

[ChiroVette]

By the way, hello, Pete, it's been a while! How are you?

On the fractal, do you also hear the backing track while recording (i.e. does Waveform playback through the Fractal to the headphones?).

Yes. That is precisely what happens. I hear both the guitar properly and the backing tracks properly. Only in the final recorded guitar track does that one track noticeably drop in volume.

If so, you SHOULD really disable direct feedback from guitar to headphones within the fractal, so you get to hear the MIX including guitar, the way Waveform is playing it. However, in a brief read of the manual, they don't seem to have a simple way of doing it; probably assuming if you don't want to do that, you don't use headphones.

lol Don't even get me started on the whole no easy way to do shit with this unit. I think I will ask this on the Fractal forum. I kind of got into it with a couple of them a few weeks back, though most were genuinely trying to help.

Sounds like if you wanted to do that, you'd have to plug guitar into something OTHER than input 1, which defaults to output 1 which the headphone always defaults to monitoring. If you plug into 2 or 3, then you can select the alternate input in WAVEFORM to record from, and then have the guitar as part of the overall mix in the Waveform output.

Something else I should probably ask on the forum. As, like you said, there really isn't a simply way to do this. Truth be told, this isn't really something I need right now for everyday use. Maybe in the future, but for now, what I really want to do is record some of my playing with the backing tracks to post on Fractal's forum, because I can't really put into linguistic terms the aural issues I am having with the Fractal. They asked me for some sample recordings. So I just want to record a true representation of what the unit sounds like, both by itself (just me playing) and a few short clips jamming to the backing tracks.

In the useful menu. on the track you intend to record, select "live input monitoring" to enable it from input to output. Turn that setting off, and the guitar should NOT be heard unless you are playing back.
If you do, then the Fractal is ALSO internally feeding input 2 locally back to output 1, which is headphones.

I went into the useful menu for the track, and clicked on live input monitoring just for kicks and giggles, and lo and behold, I got the doubling effect that @pough was referring to. Yikes! It was nasty, so as I think you are suggesting, I immediately toggled it off.

Also, with input monitoring off, I was still able to hear the guitar, both without the backing tracks playing and with it playing.

By the way, I may have at least mitigated the problem using Clip Gain, which I really didn't want to do. It seems like a little boost of between 1.5 and 2.0 db gets the volume of the track back up. But I honestly can't tell if the loss of volume is also coming with some aural artifacts I may not be perceiving at the moment.

Another thing that pough suggested was to check the Raw Input, which I did. It wasn't as bad as he was saying it could be, like between -15 and -20, but it was a little lower than the -3 to -6 range he was suggesting. When playing a solo, for instance, the range seemed to be between like -9 and -7, which is why I used a 1.5 to 2.0 db increase in the clip gain after recording.

That's a really nice unit, but along with all it's capabilities comes a fairly steep learning curve to fully exploit it.

Yeah, it's been a nightmare of a learning curve. I really had no idea the unit with be this nebulous. I may have been better served with a simpler unit, like the Helix, in retrospect. The FM9 is supposed to be the best of the best, well other than the rack mounted Fractal, which I didn't want to deal with.

I really didn't realize that spending upwards of $2K for this unit was going to require me studying this insanely long manual, and watching videos over and over and over again to learn it. I kind of threw my hands up for now, and have sort of settled on some presets I downloaded, and one set that a friend of mine online gave me his settings for, and I replicated them for all my Jerry Garcia tones. A couple of people on the Fractal forums were a little snooty about this, and I sort of promised to upload some clips explaining why I think that the modeling and effects are okay, but not blowing my skirt up, which, of course they claim is my fault somehow. lol Which it may be, hence making clips for them to show why the presets they all recommended I download just don't sound authentic to my ear.

Oddly enough, the Garcia stuff I programmed myself, sounds the best of everything, including the presets I downloaded from the so-called pros for other artists. I am using presets for Lukather, Gary Moore, etc., and not hearing the tones I want to. Still, so far, I think the unit is awesome, in many ways, but that maybe the modeling technology just isn't quite there yet, and I will have to settle for eventually getting all my amp modeling and stuff to about 80% of the quality of the actual amp in a room.

Maybe that's the trade-off for having so many amps, so many cabs, so many effects. That I have to settle for almost, but not quite there. Or maybe I really am doing something wrong.

[Peter Widdicombe]

The unit allows you not only to HAVE a chain of "things" set up, but to have presets of the chains; and then to have an audio control chain INDEPENDENT of all the other stuff, and to mix 2 or 3 other things along with it; and to present that optionally to the DAW as INDEPENDENT inputs and outputs through USB. You can record your guitar both raw and "with effects" without doing any physical cabling (all that "heavy lifting" is done with presets and scenes in the fractal); the cost being the unit itself and the UNDERSTANDING of the beast.

I have a simple Digitek pedal. It also has a "chain" of internal things; but each preset is completely independent from everything else, and only has a few settings for each. Never used the headphone jack on it - always just fed it into the mixer and recorded audio from there; so I use the mixer to send the guitar/bass signal either INTO waveform, or direct into the room output.

I'm sure there are ways to allow you to NOT hear the guitar direct from the Fractal - but in a brief read it implies you connect to input 2 or 3 which either do NOT default to the fractal master out/1; or allows you to set it that way. The doubling you are hearing is the latency difference between direct playback, and the Waveform and USB processing time - hopefully only 5 milliseconds or so.

[ChiroVette]

Awesome, thanks for the very well thought out posts, Peter!

Before going to the Fractal forum with these questions, I wanted to do my due-diligence, and see if you guys could help me rule out this being some issue with Waveform. It sounds like an issue with the input/output settings of the Fractal. So let me ask this, then:

In your opinion, and anyone else who wants to chime in, will I lose anything by just notching up the Clip Gain 1.5 to 2.0 db for the time being, until I can bother actually changing the input/output settings on the FM9?

[Peter Widdicombe]

It's gain staging - all interfaces should normally be just below distortion threshold - remember that too low will likely be noisy, and too high introduces distortion. Digital is typically "less friendly" than analog, so while the old rule with recording used to often be +3, digital you should keep -3 to -6 to avoid short overloaded transients.

So, +2 db or more is warranted if your level is too low; although possibly it should simply be set higher on the source; in this case the Fractal. This may be "difficult" to do, so setting +2 or more if needed is a "workaround" to get to a more acceptable input level.