Reverb question about pre-delay and depth

[GrabtharsHammer]

I will most likely make a complete fool of myself by asking this, but I have a question about the pre-delay setting of reverbs. I understand that it controls a delay between the unprocessed sound and the reverb. Now I have tried to find out what this does in regards to depth, googled it quite extensively and watched a lot of videos - however, I have read/heard/seen many "experts' / pros' knowledge" contributions that contradict each other completely. Some say that a higher pre-delay setting will push the respective track deeper into the mix because it will let the room sound bigger. Others say that higher pre-delay settings will let the track seem nearer and more in-your-face, because the first couple of millisecond remain dry. I've tried to find this out using my ears, but unfortunately I can't really seem to rely on them... one day a higher pre-delay setting seems to let the tracks (e.g. snare, vocals) get pushed deeper, a day later I am not so sure anymore and another day later I believe to hear the opposite.

So what exactly is a pre delay doing to a track in regards to depth?

[3ee]

"Some say that a higher pre-delay setting will push the respective track deeper into the mix because it will let the room sound bigger. "

pre-delay (only) in conjunction with wet/dry blend and other parameters will affect "depth" ...touching pre-delay alone will help for some more "technical" reasons like for example on a vocal or some drums, if you give more pre-delay, it will give them more clarity/intelligibility rather than affect perceived room size that much...

so, finally: when adjusting reverb, play with all parameters and have a clear image in your head what you're shooting for... after achieving it, you can fine-tune some parameters (like pre-delay) to fit it better in the mix and that's about it.

[IIRs]

More predelay will usually make the source seem closer.

Imagine you're in a large space, listening to a source positioned at the opposite end of the room: the dry signal and the reflections will reach your ears at more or less the same time.

Now imagine the same space, but the source is right next to you: you'll hear the dry sound first, then the reflections slightly later as they take time to reach the walls then bounce back.

[DJ Warmonger]

Pre-delay means the distance between listener and the sound source. The longer delay, the larger distance. This is very noticeable in the mix, at least as long as you're using realistic reverbs.

Usually I set about 13 ms for percussion, 38-40 ms for leads (just at the edge of integration time) and 80+ for pads and background FX. The latter means main sound and reverb are clearly disjointed from each other, just as far echo in open space.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Pre-delay means the distance between listener and the sound source. The longer delay, the larger distance.

Isn't pre-delay inversely related to distance of the source from the listener, relative to the distance of the source from reflective (reverb-creating) surfaces?

So then: Longer pre-delay would actually make the source seem further from the listener and closer to the reflective surfaces (walls etc). Short pre-delay would make it sound like the source is close to the listener, and the walls are further away from both listener and source.

Here's a good reverb article:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... verb-pro-1

"pre-delay setting, which simply delays the onset of the reverb reflections by a specified amount — the longer the pre-delay, the closer the dry sounds appear to be in comparison with the boundaries of the simulated room."

So pre-delay does not affect the dry/direct source sound, just the reverb reflections.

[nonnaci]

There're two ways of understanding pre-delay from the perspective of live-recording and reverb modeling.

During live, you can place the microphones at various distances from the sound-source which for most rectangular-ish rooms, a distant mic will both narrow the distance between the direct source and the early-wall reflections as well as decrease the ratio of energy between the direct and early+reverb. i.e. further placed mic will cause the direct and early to blend together making them harder to separate to the ear.

Now for artificial reverbs, pre-delay is often just the time-delay between the direct/dry and the onset of the reverb which depending on how it gets modeled may or may not have an early component.

[Tom Brokaw]

Some say that a higher pre-delay setting will [...] let the room sound bigger. Others say that higher pre-delay settings will let the track seem nearer and more in-your-face, because the first couple of millisecond remain dry.

To try to summarize what others have said and put in context with your question, these two things are not mutually exclusive.

Higher pre-delay will make the room sound bigger, while keeping the sound source near the listener.

You and a friend are in a huge church nave, one at each end.

You clap your hands. You immediately hear the clap, and after a few ms (high predelay), you hear the reverberations of that clap. The clap is in your face and the room is huge.

Now your friend claps. The verb hits your ears very closely to the original clap sound (low predelay). The room is still huge, but the clap is far away.

[mixsit]

More predelay will usually make the source seem closer.

Imagine you're in a large space, listening to a source positioned at the opposite end of the room: the dry signal and the reflections will reach your ears at more or less the same time.

Now imagine the same space, but the source is right next to you: you'll hear the dry sound first, then the reflections slightly later as they take time to reach the walls then bounce back.

Realize I've dug an old one up here, just seeing this pre-delay' question come up a lot lately, came across the thread.. and this fellow has it spot on.
A few things here I've found helpful. -First/best to hear it well (its effect on the source's image placement primarily.. Look to a suitable 'Room patch -suitable and typical, allows for no pre delay -i.e. the source sits 'in the room.
As you add some in.. the first several ms, the source begins to pull forward -in the room. 10 or 15(?) the room more behind the source, more, into 'detached/'reflection effects territory. Basically, the 'simplicity of the patch lets us hear and recognize it.
Very often- allow for more complicated algorithms and their 'patch offerings having various amounts 'built in, and/or with associated reflections.