Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[SLiC]

Yeh, I'm on V5 and update plan just expired before 5.1 so I will probably wait until the next beta comes out (5.2) and assuming its not just 'devices' jump back in then. Every 12 month is just seeing a little too often for me, but every 2 years is great value! Onset and Audio Quantize improvements were much needed, I am looking forward to that, but not enough to upgrade just yet...If I am totally honest I probably would have just upgraded anyway normally despite being a bit underwhelmed, but I got the Live 12 beta and that has kept me occupied and helped me wait!

I tell myself that every 2 years is probably enough, but I'm a sucker for keeping up to date I did manage to hold on for the 5.1 announcement before activating a plan I had in the bag, so that's something I guess

It is hard, Its like OCD staying up-to-date but I didn't use the 'spectral tools' update at all (should have been a paid optional add in ) and wont really use the filters update so I have manged to hold! If they had just thrown in midi comping I would have been all in! I got the Live 12 update for £100 (I think as I have a PUSH 3 Stand Alone) and that is great value (massive update) and probably no need to update again for 3 years so that was a no brainer!

[xbitz]

Ableton is still the monster to beat.

In terms of number of users and market share that statement is true.

Yes. And I don’t think it has to do, at this point in time, with BW being the new kid in town anymore.
I mean… every forum and in a lot of Ableton YouTube videos, you see BW being mentioned, by its users in the comments section, with encouragement to switch over. It’s actually a good option for many Ableton (and other DAWs) users that needs another type of workflow.

What “monster” means, beside the market share, is Ableton’s ability to engage again in the game by trying to restructure its old framework. I was surprised to see so much innovation in the pianoroll and global scale awareness for what many people call “an old stiff locked code”.
To me v12 is a glimpse into the awakening giant that has been taken for granted regarding its dead end road because of the original limitations of the code structure.

Such as (and BW abandoned the PR so far)

(Posted by Yorrrrrr in another thread)

Who knows what’s really happening behind the scenes…

I think we should be ready to be surprised, but not yet…

remark, under Bitwig, it's possible to print out the MIDI into a MIDI Cap instance using bounce in place(and an undo) at any point of the track, thereby enhancing the significance of MIDI-modifying devices(or NoteGrid), while ensuring the source remains unaltered, so luckily "BW abandoned the PR so far"

[SLiC]

As shown in the video a few posts back, In 12 the MIDI-modifying devices don't need printing at all, they are 'in the piano roll' and can be altered in real time and also stepped back as required...no rack devices required. The raw PR editing is now a lot more functional (dare I say a bit more FL Studio influenced!). The scale awareness is also super deep (like to filter level!) and IMHO I now prefer the browser in Live (with similar sound search)never thought I would say that!

[enCiphered]

I got the Live 12 update for £100 (I think as I have a PUSH 3 Stand Alone) and that is great value (

£100 from Live 11 as a push 3 owner and you call this a no brainer? Doesn´t push 3 cost almost 2000 bucks, the standalone version?
How much is the regular update from 11 to 12 if you don´t get a discount?

[xbitz]

As shown in the video a few posts back, In 12 the MIDI-modifying devices don't need printing at all, they are 'in the piano roll' and can be altered in real time and also stepped back as required...no rack devices required. The raw PR editing is now a lot more functional (dare I say a bit more FL Studio influenced!). The scale awareness is also super deep (like to filter level!) and IMHO I now prefer the browser in Live (with similar sound search)never thought I would say that!

I fiddled around for a while, but couldn't find a device that turns crap into gold. It always ended up with me undoing everything. Definitely, a method like the one used by RapidComposer is needed, one that doesn't modify the source and where the modifications are preserved(per device), build upon each other, and remain editable later.

And since the Bitwig device chain is just like this, it might not provide visual feedback for every modification made by each inserted device, but the modifications are preserved, the elements in the chain can be swapped, making it more usable than Ableton Live, where if you use for ex. two piano roll M4L devices in succession, you can't modify the first one and then rebuild the second one based on it, and so on

ps. and as an additional bonus, BWS recognizes the MIDI Channels and the MIDI Cap too

Képernyőfotó 2023-12-21 - 14.33.07.png

and how great it is (like the MIDI Burn under FL Studio) that you can print out the sequencers of third-party plugins, like Falcon.

[a9k1tp]

Is this still the problem with Ableton or they fixed that?

[PieBerger]

Is this still the problem with Ableton or they fixed that?

I don't know about automation, but in the Live 12 Beta PDC between devices on the same channel is still "broken". It was one of the first things I checked when I got access to it!

[perpetual3]

Is the MIDI Cap plugin the birdsthings one?

As shown in the video a few posts back, In 12 the MIDI-modifying devices don't need printing at all, they are 'in the piano roll' and can be altered in real time and also stepped back as required...no rack devices required. The raw PR editing is now a lot more functional (dare I say a bit more FL Studio influenced!). The scale awareness is also super deep (like to filter level!) and IMHO I now prefer the browser in Live (with similar sound search)never thought I would say that!

I fiddled around for a while, but couldn't find a device that turns crap into gold. It always ended up with me undoing everything. Definitely, a method like the one used by RapidComposer is needed, one that doesn't modify the source and where the modifications are preserved(per device), build upon each other, and remain editable later.

And since the Bitwig device chain is just like this, it might not provide visual feedback for every modification made by each inserted device, but the modifications are preserved, the elements in the chain can be swapped, making it more usable than Ableton Live, where if you use for ex. two piano roll M4L devices in succession, you can't modify the first one and then rebuild the second one based on it, and so on

ps. and as an additional bonus, BWS recognizes the MIDI Channels and the MIDI Cap too
Képernyőfotó 2023-12-21 - 14.33.07.png
and how great it is (like the MIDI Burn under FL Studio) that you can print out the sequencers of third-party plugins, like Falcon.

[xbitz]

^^^ yepp, It has a free version with 1-minute buffering, but if it's already there, it should also be good for MIDI capturing, so I bought it

[pdxindy]

Bitwig needs to grow up. He’s a promising kid, but still no daddy Ableton.

I hope not... kids are way more fresh and alive and fun than adults.

[SLiC]

I got the Live 12 update for £100 (I think as I have a PUSH 3 Stand Alone) and that is great value (

£100 from Live 11 as a push 3 owner and you call this a no brainer? Doesn´t push 3 cost almost 2000 bucks, the standalone version?
How much is the regular update from 11 to 12 if you don´t get a discount?

I have no idea, I know its 20% off 'launch price' but I think you have to log in to see your upgrade price...

Yup- Push Standalone isn't cheap but I think its great value, its currently my most used hardware (and I have a lot!) it replaced my MPC Live II and Digitact (which I sold) and that almost paid for it. I also have a PUSH 2 I can now sell, just haven't got around to it, so may be in profit

The upgrade is a no brainer for me as I get double value- I get all the new DAW features and a msive update to my portable MPE 'hardware' synth/sampler/fx/packs (yes I know, its just a computer in a box, so is my most of my hardware!)

[SLiC]

Bitwig needs to grow up. He’s a promising kid, but still no daddy Ableton.

I hope not... kids are way more fresh and alive and fun than adults.

I can see this going the wrong way!

[pdxindy]

I'm inclined to agree, but if one has little to no interest in Push, it kinda sucks that resources are sucked up whole sale into its continued development. It creates a kind of two-tiered userbase, where those without a Push are second-class citizens in a fashion.

I have no interest in Push, and Ableton has put a lot of development time into Push since it's original release.

I still think Live 12 is a solid update for Live users. I wouldn't be disappointed with it if I were using Live. Ableton development is impressive, between Push 3 and Live 12. I like the core concepts of Bitwig more, but I would not be unhappy with Live and where it is today.

[pdxindy]

As shown in the video a few posts back, In 12 the MIDI-modifying devices don't need printing at all, they are 'in the piano roll' and can be altered in real time and also stepped back as required...no rack devices required. The raw PR editing is now a lot more functional (dare I say a bit more FL Studio influenced!).

It's a step in the right direction, but it's limited cause you cannot layer midi generators. It's a destructive process one at a time. What's nice is the realtime visual representation.

I still prefer Bitwig's Note FX cause you can layer and chain them and any of them can be edited or modulated at any time. What would be useful is a realtime visual representation. A built-in bounce to Midi would be a nice addition, but that works well enough with Bird's Midi Cap plugin that I'm fine until they add it.

[pdxindy]

How much is the regular update from 11 to 12 if you don´t get a discount?

$183 if you order now (which is a 20% discount).

Once Live 12 ships and you have a chance to try it out, the discount is gone which would be a bit annoying if I were thinking about it.