Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[street spirit]

Finally got a beta invite, and not to thrilled about how they crammed everything together. Browser for one is a PITA to use, the tagging is a cool idea, but its not implemented well. I mean for years us long time users have just been going on folders and visual to find our content.

The midi AI tools or whatever sucks too. its a cluster f**k and hopefully they are able to stream line it before the final 12 release. Sure the new devices are neat, as always, but i mostly use vst's.

The mixer pop up view is a cluster f**k too. Its just too much to navigate through comfortably. Other than that stuff, it was pretty damn stable for a beta. No crashes and all my plugins were scanned and worked fine.

The browser- as clumsy as it is to use was pretty damn fast too. Just not my thing i guess. I''l prob not upgrade.

The abe devs went ape shit in my opinion, its just not Live user friendly anymore.

May as well call it Alberton Live or something else.

[Yorrrrrr]

Would be interesting to see what the u-he / Bitwig synergy is going to bring us. Looking forward to NAMM in general.

Are there physical modelling synths in Ableton?

Live Suite includes the AAS synths (Lounge Lizard, Chromaphone and String Studio). Unfortunately AAS has not evolved their DSP Algo's in 15 years. The AAS synths are still good tools, but they do not sound as natural as other recent modeling instruments. String Studio has some characteristics not in other synths.

If AAS/Ableton stock synths are not good enough, does Bitwig do any better in this realm?

[machinesworking]

Would be interesting to see what the u-he / Bitwig synergy is going to bring us. Looking forward to NAMM in general.

Are there physical modelling synths in Ableton?

Live Suite includes the AAS synths (Lounge Lizard, Chromaphone and String Studio). Unfortunately AAS has not evolved their DSP Algo's in 15 years. The AAS synths are still good tools, but they do not sound as natural as other recent modeling instruments. String Studio has some characteristics not in other synths.

They are MPE capable in Live though. unlike the Reason instruments, the half assed new plugin from Traktion and AAS outside of Ableton.

[Greenstorm33]

Would be interesting to see what the u-he / Bitwig synergy is going to bring us. Looking forward to NAMM in general.

Are there physical modelling synths in Ableton?

Live Suite includes the AAS synths (Lounge Lizard, Chromaphone and String Studio). Unfortunately AAS has not evolved their DSP Algo's in 15 years. The AAS synths are still good tools, but they do not sound as natural as other recent modeling instruments. String Studio has some characteristics not in other synths.

They are MPE capable in Live though. unlike the Reason instruments, the half assed new plugin from Traktion and AAS outside of Ableton.

I keep expecting AAS to release a paid update for the VST versions of those plugins where the only notable change is that they're MPE compatible. Since clearly they had to do the bulk of the work for that change for Ableton anyways.

[xbitz]

...
btw. Cubase offers a similar rental plan for $16.99 per month for 34 months, which also includes all future updates...even better
...

This isn´t true... at least it wasn´t from V12 to 13...

I had rented V12 for 1 month to check it out properly and if I now have a look into renting Cubase 13 it says this:
Cubase Splice.jpg

So means I have to pay additional 6 month x $16.99 = $101,94 for upgrading from V12 to V13...

Means if there is a paid upgrade for Cubase it´s not included in the normal RTO plan but paid seperately while for Bitwig I received all updates for free for all the time... what it actually says already on the splice Bitwig page:
Bitwig.jpg

Sure, but Cubase isn't the problem right now. I'll upgrade to 13 for $40 when it's on sale again, but what I'm really concerned about is this.

Screenshot 2024-01-18 at 05.59.55.png

Suit or not Suit this is the question ... or Bitwig ... or Logic , At least your AL crashed and burned, so it's over, Nah, let's wait for 2024 NAMM Show to see if anything comes out, at least about Logic

btw. this is cheating

Splitit - US, CA, AU, JP
Splitit is a payment solution enabling shoppers to pay for purchases with an existing Visa or Mastercard credit card by splitting the cost into interest-free monthly payments.

Splitit requests authorization from the shopper's card company, reserving the total purchase amount from the shopper's available line of credit. Then, each month, according to the shopper's payment plan, the installment amount is collected, and Splitit requests authorization for the remaining balance.
Here is an example of how the service works for a customer buying a product totaling $600 in 3 installments of $200 each:
1. Splitit obtains authorization from the credit card company for the full purchase amount of $600. This is not a charge on the card; it is simply reserving $600 from the shopper's line of credit.
2. The credit card company then charges the shopper $200 for the first payment.
3. During the second month, Splitit requests authorization for the outstanding purchase amount of $400, and charges the shopper the second installment of $200.
4. This authorization and charge process continues until the full $600 is collected–in this case, for 3 months.

Ableton’s General Terms and Conditions and Privacy Information apply to the installment payment and its management via Splitit. The payment itself is handled by Worldpay Limited. The Terms of Use and Privacy Notice of Worldpay also apply.

- https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... ds#Splitit

US, CA, AU, JP only ... anyway it's pretty ... expressive

[pdxindy]

They are MPE capable in Live though. unlike the Reason instruments, the half assed new plugin from Traktion and AAS outside of Ableton.

Yes, that is a nice improvement from Ableton. I was only speaking about the sound quality of the AAS modeling.

Kaivo for example, has noticeably better sound quality than the AAS stuff. I can get more satisfying results in synths that aren't even specifically physical modeling synths because the tools are flexible. It's a bummer that AAS stopped development all those years ago. They have been passed up in a number of ways.

[Dionysos]

I like to always keep my software the most updated, functional and stable it could be.

Like I said, in Bitwig that is fully achievable without the continuously active license presented in your calculation.

For example, my license ran out a few weeks after the last version was announced. It can still be months until the next minor version is released which would require me to reactivate my license. I'll get any bug fixes released in the meantime without an active license. That's why your original calculation doesn't line up with my experience.

But if your goal was to demonstrate a worst-case scenario for how much it costs to use Bitwig, you've certainly succeeded.

[pdxindy]

But if your goal was to demonstrate a worst-case scenario for how much it costs to use Bitwig, you've certainly succeeded.

Also, with Bitwig, you can always buy on sale and always be up to date. The only reason to ever buy an update at $169 is to donate the extra cash to the company.

[SLiC]

I don't thin k there is that much difference in price for it to be a deciding factor for anyone, it's hard to pick one over the other as their relative features change very year, you are comparing something that changes constantly! The only things that remain pretty firm are if you are a fan of MAX and PUSH, then you should probably be with Live...other than that both the software and what you need are subject to change and you can do pretty much anything you need with either!

[machinesworking]

They are MPE capable in Live though. unlike the Reason instruments, the half assed new plugin from Traktion and AAS outside of Ableton.

Yes, that is a nice improvement from Ableton. I was only speaking about the sound quality of the AAS modeling.

Kaivo for example, has noticeably better sound quality than the AAS stuff. I can get more satisfying results in synths that aren't even specifically physical modeling synths because the tools are flexible. It's a bummer that AAS stopped development all those years ago. They have been passed up in a number of ways.

My opinion, MPE support matters more than new features without MPE, especially for physical modeling. I'm actually shocked by how many physical modeling plugins do not support MPE and I take that as a serious blow to an instruments ability to accurately emulate acoustic instruments, for obvious reasons I think.

Some developers really do themselves a disservice, Madrona Labs do not seem to state anywhere on their site or in their manual, that Kaivo supports MPE.

Plus, I don't agree that because something is older it's not as good etc. Right now the newest physical modeling synths I know of, (barring Falcon and Plasmonic), don't support MPE. Plasmonic is great, I'm a perfect customer for that philosophy, physical modeling synths don't have to produce dead accurate violins etc. (we have dedicated PM synths for that), they have to have great controls for adjusting MPE response etc.

[SLiC]

They are MPE capable in Live though. unlike the Reason instruments, the half assed new plugin from Traktion and AAS outside of Ableton.

Yes, that is a nice improvement from Ableton. I was only speaking about the sound quality of the AAS modeling.

Kaivo for example, has noticeably better sound quality than the AAS stuff. I can get more satisfying results in synths that aren't even specifically physical modeling synths because the tools are flexible. It's a bummer that AAS stopped development all those years ago. They have been passed up in a number of ways.

My opinion, MPE support matters more than new features without MPE, especially for physical modeling. I'm actually shocked by how many physical modeling plugins do not support MPE and I take that as a serious blow to an instruments ability to accurately emulate acoustic instruments, for obvious reasons I think.

Yes, and with a PUSH 3 these guys operate like hardware MPE instruments, a great MPE playing surface plus touch sensitive knobs and buttons all mapped with a great GUI...perfect.

[Ou_Tis]

They are MPE capable in Live though. unlike the Reason instruments, the half assed new plugin from Traktion and AAS outside of Ableton.

Yes, that is a nice improvement from Ableton. I was only speaking about the sound quality of the AAS modeling.

Kaivo for example, has noticeably better sound quality than the AAS stuff. I can get more satisfying results in synths that aren't even specifically physical modeling synths because the tools are flexible. It's a bummer that AAS stopped development all those years ago. They have been passed up in a number of ways.

My opinion, MPE support matters more than new features without MPE, especially for physical modeling. I'm actually shocked by how many physical modeling plugins do not support MPE and I take that as a serious blow to an instruments ability to accurately emulate acoustic instruments, for obvious reasons I think.

Some developers really do themselves a disservice, Madrona Labs do not seem to state anywhere on their site or in their manual, that Kaivo supports MPE.

Plus, I don't agree that because something is older it's not as good etc. Right now the newest physical modeling synths I know of, (barring Falcon and Plasmonic), don't support MPE. Plasmonic is great, I'm a perfect customer for that philosophy, physical modeling synths don't have to produce dead accurate violins etc. (we have dedicated PM synths for that), they have to have great controls for adjusting MPE response etc.

Don't forget Physical Audio's Modus, released last year (though their sound is arguably niche, and I haven't bought it yet). And Dawesome's upcoming Myth (was going to be released next week iirc but has been pushed back) has some physical modeling.

Outersect Modeler is supposedly going to fully support MPE in the future. Hopefully soon....

[apoclypse]

Finally got a beta invite, and not to thrilled about how they crammed everything together. Browser for one is a PITA to use, the tagging is a cool idea, but its not implemented well. I mean for years us long time users have just been going on folders and visual to find our content.

The midi AI tools or whatever sucks too. its a cluster f**k and hopefully they are able to stream line it before the final 12 release. Sure the new devices are neat, as always, but i mostly use vst's.

The mixer pop up view is a cluster f**k too. Its just too much to navigate through comfortably. Other than that stuff, it was pretty damn stable for a beta. No crashes and all my plugins were scanned and worked fine.

The browser- as clumsy as it is to use was pretty damn fast too. Just not my thing i guess. I''l prob not upgrade.

The abe devs went ape shit in my opinion, its just not Live user friendly anymore.

May as well call it Alberton Live or something else.

I don't agree. I think the interface is far more functional now. The browser is better now. You don't have to use tagging, the best thing is that now when I do a search for bass, I don't have to deal with subfolders etc. I can just scroll through all my bass content. It's really sped up my browser workflow. Just hit Cmd+F, type what I need use the arrow keys to my item, hit enter and I'm set. I don't bother with tagging.

The mixer popup is imo great. I like having the mixer in the arrange viewing. Now I don't have to constantly keep toggling between views.

I think Live moving to a more accessible, more feature-full workflow and UI is a good thing. It feels more complete now vs before I would always feel like I'd rather be using Bitwig. Now I feel like Live has caught up in a lot of ways in-terms of the interface and workflow.

[Yorrrrrr]

Yes, Ableton Live's workflow is even better and faster now. Love the small improvements all over the program. GUI changes don't mean you need to have every part shown all at once, you just open what you need, it's more flexible.

[machinesworking]

It's not super kosher to talk about betas, but hopefully some UX faux pass' s regarding keyboard shortcuts are fixed before release.