Pocket PC and Music: The Basic Necessities

[cobalt]

I've been looking into the Pcoket PC PDA platform and wondering about what would be needed to turn one into a complete music making platform. I know this is an obviously geeky topic to bring up, but it seems that the Pocket PC platform is really picking up technologically. Part of this is due to wireless, part due to the potential capacity of SD and CF cards (up to 8GB for SD and 32GB for CF, according to some forums, although I don't know what the max speed would be), etc. Also, there is at least one battery powered USB2 2.5" HD enclosure, which could hold a Toshiba 60 GB 7200 RPM notebook drive. The newest round of Pocket PCs have VGA screens and can support an external VGA LCD projector or monitor. So things are definitely looking positive for combining multiple devices, provided the right interfaces are in place.

Griff (www.planetgriff.com) is already a well reviewed soft synth sequencer with plugs created by MDA. I'm wondering how much further there is to go to add all the features of a DAW, including:

1. keyboard controller or midi interface
2. 2-channel audio interface (maybe in an SDIO card?)
3. high speed interface for external memory
4. VST format support
5. optical interface

I don't know much about tech stuff, so I was curious about what people thought about how far the Pocket PC can be pushed in the direction of a DAW. I put the list kind of in order of importance to me. I'm mostly wondering about hardware constraints, since I assume that some software developer would take on the task if the hardware can support it.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

-c

[crazed one]

I don't have anything to say other than that would totally be fuckin cool. f**k a home computer, f**k a laptop. This idea will be really cool once the power and speed get up there.

[soulkraka]

hey cobalt,

I recently picked up a PDA (dell axim X30 624mhz) and have been looking not neccesarily to make it into a full fledged DAW but a sketchpad. I have DL the Griff demo and it is pretty impressive but its a bit pricey when you factor in all the extra plugs (polysynth, filter, mda organ etc) It does sound pretty darn good though. I was surprised. I have not decided whether to buy it or not yet as I am already sketching out ideas by humming (recording) into the notepad app!!

Are you aware that Image Line is considering making FL for pocket PC? If this sounds good to you please join me in harassing them on Looptalk
(if you are a registered FL user)

Check out http://www.core-sound.com/ for more info on turning your PDA into a DAW. They offer a line of compact flash digital audio interfaces, mic pre's etc etc.

PS. something is up with the griff site. I went to their forum and the only category is called "shady aftermath" with 0 topics and 0 posts:-o There used to be some pretty decent info on their forum that I was going to recommend to you.....hmmmm.

[cobalt]

Thanks for the info soulraka. I'm not sure I'd actually want to shoot for full DAW functionality exactly in a pda device, but something combining both a soft sequencer like Griff and a flash based portable multitrack recorder like the one made by Zoom would be nice. So, kind of like a musical sketchpad with some amount of at least CD quality audio recording for samples, and basic (maybe 4 track) audio multi-tracking, combined with soft synth/sampler/effect support.

I've been looking into getting a Dell Axim for work to upgrade an old Palm, and I've been realizing that as far as work goes, a pocket pc could pretty much replace my laptop, epecially one with VGA out paired with a Bluetooth keyboard or something along those lines. A high end Pocket PC today is definitely more powerful than my first desktop PC, a PII 233 that I got 8 years ago. That's kind of what got me started on trying to track down devices and software to add basic high quality audio functionality to the pocket pc.

I haven't tried Griff, but I demoed a similar thing for the Palm OS which also sounded surprisingly good. I noticed the high price of Griff and the cost of additional plugs, which is why I think a sequencer with full VST support would be a good thing, to introduce 3rd party developers (and hopefully free VSTs). There would be problems using existing VSTs as far as the size of the UI, but if the full VST format were supported, developers could modify existing plugs for the pda environment without too much problem, and they could be seemlessly integrated into a PC based sequencer.

Also, one would like to be able to use a controller keyboard with Griff. A bluetooth MIDI adapter would be nice, but bluetooth has a lower transfer speed than USB even, so I'm not sure how well it would work as far as data synchronization in real time. On the other hand, isn't there a new wireless surround sound media system that uses bluetooth? Anyway, if bluetooth isn't feasible (lord knows how much it would cost at first, too), then a physical connection with the USB/MIDI controllers that people already own would of course be best. I wonder what kind of latency you could get on a Pocket PC, too.

I hadn't found the core-sound website when I was looking around for stuff last night. They're definitely aiming in one of the directions I had in mind as far as hardware goes. I don't know how I feel about the CF SPDIF audio interface. It's extremely cool and all, but I think in a lot of situations you'd want an 1/8th inch analog connector, just because it seems like having multiple portable SPDIF devices would get expensive: for instance, getting a digital mixer, digital mic preamp, etc..... Whereas a 2 channel analog audio something might be more useful for making a simple demo. Maybe a CF with a breakout box of mini-connectors, like the ones on some PCI audio interfaces. If you could use existing USB and Firewire audio interfaces, even better. Or even a PCMCIA adapter with a built in battery housing an Echo Indigo. (I made this device up, I haven't seen one out there yet. But core-sound has those two CFII with battery power adapters on their site).

Of course, core-sound seems to be shooting more towards high quality environmental recording (i.e., cd-quality concert bootlegging): they're aiming for features like extended battery life, pocket-sized microphone preamps, lengthy 2 track audio recording, audio buffering so the user can swap flash cards without losing audio, binaural recording, etc.

Zoom's pda-style multitracker looks pretty amazing. It would be nice to replicate that kind of functionality in a Pocket PC. And if you add that to a soft sequencer/sampler/synth package, you basically have a mini-DAW. Something like Tracktion or FLStudio in PDA format is kind of what I have in mind. I've also seen some shareware WAV editors for PDAs. I think one of them is actually called WaveLab, clearly beneath Steinberg's radar. All that put togehter sounds like a complete package, if you can get them in one package.

Overall I'm talking about building the perfect personal musical sketchpad that's completely compatible with existing PC music technology (MIDI, SPDIF, Firewire, USB, wireless data transfer, whatever you need). (Integration with the JazzMutant Lemur thingie would be awesome. I just thought I'd throw that in.) Something for recording environmental samples, recording an eight-track demo, recording informal gig sessions with friends, working on beats, playing a flexible, ultra-portable synth/sampler/drum machine, that sort of thing. Also, something that integrates with the PC software and hardware environment, so you don't have to pay the overhead associated with building a new hardware infrastructure, so to speak. And finally, something that you can write off as a business expense on your taxes.

Or, said in another way:

I don't have anything to say other than that would totally be fuckin cool. f**k a home computer, f**k a laptop.

I'm thinking that something like this (a specialized Pocket PC mini-DAW with associated accessories) could exist in about 2 years at around $500-700, plus $60 for the data-sync/charging cradle, of course. Currently the Zoom portable multitracker costs about $500, and a high end Pocket PC also costs around $500. With full support from the existing software and hardware manufacturers, independent developers, and users, it would be a way to get into portable, project-oriented PC based audio at a fraction of the cost of a laptop in a way that provides good integration with a full-fledged PC. It would compete with midrange standalone multitrackers, none of which offer full PC integration on a software level. The form factor may never catch on on a huge scale, which is why I think the Griff approach is kind of limited. Griff is right now limited to the pool of people who are already going to buy a Pocket PC, who are mostly gadget freaks like myself. Some of those people will be interested in running an audio sequencer like Griff, but if it doesn't have the ability to integrate with the PC environment, it's utility and desirability are kind of reduced. It seems to me that if you could piggyback onto the existing set of resources, then suddenly the idea becomes a lot more practical.

It seems to me that the biggest issues will be the latency of the audio drivers, quality of data synchronization, the speed of data transfer and memory storage, and, of course, the amount and cost of RAM. I have no way of gauging the power of the current pocket pc processors relative to PCs, though, so I don't know if this is already possible or is several years away. Whether it's commercially viable is kind of it's own issue. I mean, I would want one. But I'm not sure that means much.


-c

[HelgeG]

I haven't tried Griff, but I demoed a similar thing for the Palm OS which also sounded surprisingly good.

What software was this? I used to have Griff on a PocketPC, and would love to have something similar on my T3.

[cobalt]

I don't exactly remember what it was called. It was one of a couple that are on the PalmSource website. It's probably not as good as Griff, which is a more serious product, it seems. The one I tried was awkward to use, and didn't benefit from MDA's work. But I think there are maybe 2 or 3 of them out there, one of which was written up in an article that I think I read in Sound On Sound about portable audio software. If I can find that article, I'll let you know.

-c

[HelgeG]

Thanks cobalt. I browsed PalmGear's site, and found an application called Bhajis Loops that looks interesting, I will download it and give it a go.

[SLiC]

I have an iPAQ 4100 PDA (pocket PC platform)

I think I have tried all of the music apps out there! (There are many) by far the best (IMHO way better than Griff) is Pheonix Studio-

AS close as you will get to REASON/Fruity on a PDA!

http://www.pdagold.com/articles/detail.asp?a=124

Sounds pretty good considering!

[RChler]

this sounds really cool...but how many plugins you can run on it ? even a 2,2 ghz Laptop sucks off at the fourth or fifth upper-range VSTi....
any experience ?

[tk421]

Are you aware that Image Line is considering making FL for pocket PC? If this sounds good to you please join me in harassing them on Looptalk

I thought they quit working on this? If not, I need to save up for a Pocket PC.

[cobalt]

this sounds really cool...but how many plugins you can run on it ? even a 2,2 ghz Laptop sucks off at the fourth or fifth upper-range VSTi....
any experience ?

As far as I know there is no VST support for any PDA music application. But it's something that I think would make a PDA music application more viable. VSTs would have to be optimized for the platform in a number of ways I'm sure, including user interface and CPU footprint, but as long as VST support is there, then the potential for project compatibility with PCs will be there as well, as well as a community of developers who don't have to use a special, single application proprietary platform. I wonder what was involved for MDA to write the Griff plugs, and how similar it was to putting together a VST. Somebody more knowledgeable about the relative processing power of current Pocket PCs vs. PCs would have a better idea about what sorts of plugs would be capable of running on a Pocket PC, I hope.

Thanks for the link to Phoenix Studio, it definitely looks good. It's also $25, which is nice. If or when I get a Pocket PC (I think maybe after the new year), I'll be sure to check it out.

-c

[RChler]

be kind and keep us informed

a silent pocket-size sequnecer would be like a dream coming true or slt...

[Lunch Money]

PS. something is up with the griff site. I went to their forum and the only category is called "shady aftermath" with 0 topics and 0 posts:-o There used to be some pretty decent info on their forum that I was going to recommend to you.....hmmmm.

If they're phpBB, they probably got hacked along with literally hundreds of other boards.

Greg

[cobalt]

I've located a couple more potential resources for PPC users.

Here's a list of audio programs for PPC:
http://www.pocketgear.com/software_browse.asp?cat=26

Which includes this sequencer Syntrax, which exports not only WAV but MIDI files (unlike Griff and possibly Phoenix Studio...someone should confirm this, since I don't actually have a PPC):
http://www.pocketgear.com/software_detail.asp?id=9587

Here is a website of compositional tools using MIDI, maybe more for music sketchpad functionality:
http://pdamusician.com/music.html

Along the hardware angle, this is the only CF to PCMCIA adapter I could find that actually allows you to use a PCMCIA card on a PPC, and not the kind that allows you to simply read CF flash memory through a PCMCIA interface:
http://www.accurite.com/CFPCAdapter.html
Review here:
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/accurite-c ... eview.html

It's incredibly ugly, and should be put in a little box with a cable attachment. This could theoretically be used with an audio interface, but of course there would have to be drivers. As far as I've seen, there are no ASIO drivers for the PPC. I don't think anything has yet addressed the issue of keyboard controllers or low latency applications.

Also, regarding portable hard drive storage (for laptops), this looks promising:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 063#884063
Obviously this looks like it should work pretty well with a laptop equipped properly, not a PPC. But it's pretty cool in iteself and, if it works for audio, could help out with live recording and a minimum of cables. I think it's unlikely, however, that a laptop with a PCMCIA Firewire 800 cardbus can power both an M-Audio 410 audio interface and a bus-powered 7200RPM HD at the same time.

Back to PPCs: Regarding communication with USB peripherals, there's something called USB on the go, which is a take off of USB for PPCs and mobile devices.
http://www.everythingusb.com/usbonthego/
However, it's been a few years since this was annuonced and I don't really see anything going on here. Apparently they developed the circuitry to easily upgrade a device to use USB on the go, but I don't see that it has caught on. I think the basic idea is to provide a different serial connector cable than the one used to sync a PPC to your PC, and to interface that with USB devices.

However, I located one CF USB1.1 adapter
http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/pro ... cfu1u.html
which works with USB input devices and memory storage. This might be usable with USB1.1 audio interfaces, MIDI devices/adapters, and external memory storage (for low speed purposes only). There is a list of compatible devices that is fairly old at the bottom of the page. The thing would be the software drivers, as usual.

So, from what I can tell, the current state of audio composition on PPC:
- a few multi-track sequencers using MIDI files but often with limited import/export to a PC
- a number of MIDI composition and editing tools, notation software, keys, drums, etc., many for generic purposes like ringtones
- a number of music tools so to speak, like tuners, metronomes, etc.
- a few recording applications to WAV files, 44.1/16, which operate off the built in microphone but seem to often work with the CF audio interface (below)
- no low latency applications or existing implementation of external controllers
- one CF audio interface with SPDIF I/O
- one CF-PCMCIA adapter with some potential if audio drivers were made available, if it weren't so ugly and ergonomically senseless
- no existing implementetion of a fast data connection by firewire or USB2.0
- one CF-USB1.1 adapter (there might be more, but I didn't see any) that might work with all kinds of things already available if drivers were available, with the potential to add connectivity to external controllers, audio interfaces, midi interfaces, and input devices of other kinds
- usb on the go is really not quite happening and might be dead
- big potential for integration with other wireless devices and wireless network applications (teleport fx?)

Overall, that's pretty good news, I think. Basically, hardware support is there for adding multiple USB devices to your PPC through a CF card interface via USB hub. This would allow you to add a keyboard controller, which would be a huge improvement as far as using a PPC sequencer, even if just for note entry and not for low latency playback. If you could get reasonably low latencies, you could have stand-alone synth applications with MIDI record capability. The software support is lacking, though, as far as device drivers.

Same situation with USB audio interfaces, as far as hardware availability without driver availability. However, the CF audio interface will allow for 44.1/16 recording to flash cards, which is great for straightforward stereo recording applications, assuming you have very big pockets and don't mind the cost. On the other hand, if you could get USB device support, you could add full mic support with phantom power pretty easily to the PPC (that is, for much less money, given the availability of USB audio interfaces). But they would need to have their own power supply.

Incidentally, the flash memory situation as far as I've read is that Sandisk has a commercially available 8GB CF card (I don't know the speed on that) right now for $800, which is projected to drop like a rock over the next year or so. There are a couple 2 to 3 GB high speed CF cards, and a new 3GB SD card has been announced. Hi speed SD cards are about $100 per GB, up to 2 GB. You can get a 4GB Microdrive for about $200. (You can bust open one of the Rio MP3 players to get a Hitachi 5GB CF microdrive for $250, as well. Apparently it works fine with cameras.) There's not as much right now in the way of SD peripherals, so if you have dual card SD/CF support, SD memory would be superior, even though the potential storage of CF is much higher than SD. core-sound has that dual CF device (with cell battery for power), but I think it only works on HP PPCs. The digital photography industry is really driving the CF/SD flash memory industry right now, so the need to access hard drives directly through a PPC is probably not going to be much of an issue, except for larger-scale applications. A PPC can replace a 4-5GB mp3 player (e.g., ipod mini, etc.) very easily, with the added bonus of hot swappable storage and a large touchscreen, at the expense of battery life (not an issue in a car) and form factor.

I think that pretty much does it. By the way, here's a cool looking thread for Axim x50v owners only, which discusses how to access the hardware EQ controls on your PPC, apparently allowing for much better audio playback through headphones.
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/showthread.php?t=61035&

Later

-c

[RChler]

well done thx