My thoughts to this:Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:49 pmA few things...SamDi wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:13 pm One question from my side, can anybody tell me, why Hive is so quiet? Just tested it. With init patch and Output knob fully cranked up, it's just delivering loudness -12 dBFS on the sawtooth. Peak is around -6dBFS.
Serum e.g. delivers something around 0 dBFS and and peak at around 5dbFS (good to have some headroom on Ableton)
Each patch I make needs at least some, compression, distortion or EQing to bring loudness on a decent level. Only Arturia is delivers also such weak signals, which I don't like either.
Is it a design decision or what is the sense that without any FX the signal is just too quiet?
1. Take the Init patch, increase the output in the top right of the GUI to max, play one note. It's around -6db, play a chord: you can easily make it go above 0dbfs with polyphony. It's plenty loud.
2. Louder is not better. It's not even desirable to have your instruments near 0dbfs before you do any processing. If all of your instruments are producing levels near 0dbfs you'll be clipping your master fader in no time. You'll be overdriving your analog modeled plugins in bad ways. You'll be driving down your faders to get anything mixed.
3. Turn up your monitors/speakers/headphones, turn down your instruments. Nothing wrong with having instruments peaking at -10 or -12 or -14dbfs (ok, louder if we're talking drums but let's assume we're not). That's headroom. Those are closer to analog levels; which analog modeled gear will sound best when hit with. If you keep reasonable levels like that and it sounds too quiet, that's why you're turning up your monitors. If your channels are 14db quieter, you'll suddenly have headroom and won't be putting your master channel into the red. Or having to go crazy low with the channel faders. And the monitors being louder will make up for the difference. If you've got a weak audio interface that can't drive headphones, you may think you need louder signals, but you'd probably be better off with different headphones or a different interface.
4. You can get loudness from your mix processing and mastering, even if your instruments are outputting lower volumes than you're used to working with today.
So you never need an instrument to get to 0dbfs. It'll just make everything harder later on. Lots of instruments come with super loud presets/levels and frankly it's annoying. Headroom is your friend. There's some good YouTube videos on gain staging. I'd suggest you check them out.
1.) I am not sure, if gain staging rules, which are important for analogue technique or on interfaces to and from the DAW, can and should be applied in every case anymore for DAW-internal stuff. Let's agree, that inside a DAW 0 dbFS is no limit anymore, where track or busses start to clip, since you have internally normally 32f bit, which means a headroom of 770dB, which should be enough in the most cases. So finding a common working point on the market, where all plugins deliver their signal is the task not dependant on any technical limitation, but from some kind of agreement, where this common working point should be.
While your statement is true, that at least for analog modeled plugins, you need to adjust the gain, that you meat the sweetspot, but we talk of max values not the ability to go lower.
2.) I just want to state, that Hive is one of the most quiet synth's on the market. I made a short test with some synths:
-Sawtooth, one voice, all volume sliders fully cranked up
Bazille: +6.5 dB
Diva: +1 dB
Dune: +5 dB
Rapid: +3 dB
Pigments: +17 dB
Hive -11 dB
So I would state there is some kind of consens in the market, that a synth, fully cranked up should yet be able, to reach slighly above 0dbFS. So I stay on my opinion, that Hives abililty to gain the signal up without any FX with -11 dBFs is ridiculous too low.
We speak of the max value, not the ability with mid setted values to reach the -14dBFS you want to have.
