So what happened to that long list of devs supporting CLAP?

[] Peter:H []

It's not plugin support that's going to make the CLAP format grow. It's DAW support. Doesn't matter if all the synths in your collection have CLAP versions if your favorite DAW doesn't support the format.

Or comes up with unique daw specific extension ... anyway, it's not an easy game.
DAW support is not equal to DAW support: DAW manfactures can chose which extension they support and how.
Plugin is not equal to Plugin: Plugin manufactires can chose which extension they support and how.
If it turns out bad, then adoption is wide, but "everybody" is doing different parts.

[OdoSendaidokai]

So like here was already written, the family is growing in a healthy way with solid developed CLAP plugins.

Are you sure about the solid? Seem some slapped only the VST3 to Clap adaptor on what they have. Then it's a VST3 in CLAP disguise. You can never be sure what fancy clap stuff a Plugin actually supports. In that it's like VST3 where many devs only ported the minimum from VST2 but never went for the whole story ... there's per note articulation already in VST3. Just my gut feeling ...

Its not about your plugin has to have all the fancy features you can do with a plugin format. With that logic, every Softsynth should have all the features in this world a softsynth can have.

One big reason most people overlook is, that CLAP comes with a free license. As a manufacturer you can stick to it for 1000 years or more. Not like VST2 that is not allowed any more because Steinberg decided it, or that your VST3 license is rejected because of reasons.

Additionally, if you are using a framework like JUCE, that a lot manufacturers are using, creating a CLAP version is made easy.

So if you choose a plugin format to support, there are far more thoughts than just a customers shortsighted feature wishlist.

[ThomasHelzle]

When I read how u-he is now forced by Steinberg to discontinue offering VST2 (or even just having any VST2 code in their development files) I think CLAP is probably about to see continued support and a rise in popularity.
FL Studio is about to support it and that is one huge userbase.

But yeah, how much of it is supported is indeed the one thing that makes it very complicated for the user to get a clear picture of the actual benefit. Not that this was any different with VST2 or VST3, we're just more used to those (think of GUI scaling, 64Bit or MPE support or lots of other things a plugin could support but often didn't).
So like with the other formats, users will have to bugger devs about supporting the features they really want.

I'm super happy to see this come to fruition, having seen very very early first steps of it many years ago.

Cheers,

Tom

[burkek]

When I read how u-he is now forced by Steinberg to discontinue offering VST2 (or even just having any VST2 code in their development files) I think CLAP is probably about to see continued support and a rise in popularity.

Strange that you put those 2 sentences in the same paragraph. Steinberg does not and will never offer CLAP support, so u-he had to move to VST3 anyway to continue supporting the huge installed base of Cubase users. And a serious user would never accept the use of a CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper in lieu of an actual VST3 plugin (like the new Altitude synth, for example). Musicians would expect vendors to include VST3 support as part of their business model.

[BobDog]

So like here was already written, the family is growing in a healthy way with solid developed CLAP plugins.

Are you sure about the solid? Seem some slapped only the VST3 to Clap adaptor on what they have. Then it's a VST3 in CLAP disguise. You can never be sure what fancy clap stuff a Plugin actually supports. In that it's like VST3 where many devs only ported the minimum from VST2 but never went for the whole story ... there's per note articulation already in VST3. Just my gut feeling ...

Its not about your plugin has to have all the fancy features you can do with a plugin format. With that logic, every Softsynth should have all the features in this world a softsynth can have.

One big reason most people overlook is, that CLAP comes with a free license. As a manufacturer you can stick to it for 1000 years or more. Not like VST2 that is not allowed any more because Steinberg decided it, or that your VST3 license is rejected because of reasons.

Additionally, if you are using a framework like JUCE, that a lot manufacturers are using, creating a CLAP version is made easy.

So if you choose a plugin format to support, there are far more thoughts than just a customers shortsighted feature wishlist.

VST2 is still allowed, as long as developers had signed the license then they can carry on developing and releasing VST2 plugins.

You do not have to pay to develop VST2 and VST3 plugins, so there are also free, I have not heard of any licenses being rejected.

Juce does not natively support Clap (VST, VST3, AU, AUv3, AAX and LV2) and by the looks of it won't for a while, the next version V8 will not include Clap, who knows maybe in a few years...

[burkek]

Additionally, if you are using a framework like JUCE, that a lot manufacturers are using, creating a CLAP version is made easy.

This statement is patently false. JUCE does not support CLAP. You _can_ develop a CLAP plugin using an unsupported JUCE extension from Github though (YMMV).

[ThomasHelzle]

When I read how u-he is now forced by Steinberg to discontinue offering VST2 (or even just having any VST2 code in their development files) I think CLAP is probably about to see continued support and a rise in popularity.

Strange that you put those 2 sentences in the same paragraph. Steinberg does not and will never offer CLAP support, so u-he had to move to VST3 anyway to continue supporting the huge installed base of Cubase users. And a serious user would never accept the use of a CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper in lieu of an actual VST3 plugin (like the new Altitude synth, for example). Musicians would expect vendors to include VST3 support as part of their business model.

I was probably unclear if you misunderstand me so completely
I was not intending to say that Steinberg would support CLAP, but that CLAP itself has a great future due to Steinbergs heavy-handed way of dealing with the VST license and therefore will see growing support (from devs, not Steinberg of course).

I read the recent posts from Urs from u-he quite differently regarding the ability to offer VST2 (they currently discontinue it), but if you have deeper insights, I may be totally wrong.

And I also read a lot of comments that most developers actually wrap a lot from one basic codebase and that it does not mean anything bad. But again, if you have greater insights into the matter, I'm happy to learn otherwise.

But hey, I love CLAP and use Bitwig, so I'm good anyway

Cheers,

Tom

Edit: Here is the link to the Satin Beta Thread where u-he talks about having to fade out VST2 support viewtopic.php?p=8867069#p8867069

"Changes in licensing force us to fade out VST2 support from new releases in the coming months, so VST3 migration support is crucial if you want to continue working on older projects while using the latest versions of u-he plugins. VST2 versions of u-he plugins won't be around for much longer, so the time to urge host developers to properly support all migration methods is now. If you want to keep using the VST2 plugin format for any good reason, then please consider contacting Steinberg, explaining your situation. This thread is not the place to discuss this, as it's simply not in our power to do anything about it."

[burkek]

Steinberg dropped support of VST2 (unless you run your DAW using Rosetta interpreter on your Mac - so it was crucial to get developers to migrate to VST3 so users could run their Steinberg DAW apps in native mode. And the movement from VST2 --> VST3 is not unexpected from a business perspective. At some point everything is retired in favour of a (hopefully) better version. But I don't see developers abandoning the VST3 format in favour of CLAP. As such, I have no use for CLAP, and no apps that use it. AU, AAX and VST3 is plenty. It's like some languages, French for instance - many versions (dialects) of the same thing. Even many English words are spelled differently in the UK/Canada vs. the US. Is that really necessary and does it provide tangible benefit? Nope.

[ThomasHelzle]

LOL - I'll leave you to your personal island then.

Cheers over and out.

Tom

[BobDog]

https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... nsing.html

Q: I am a developer/company and I want to develop and distribute a VST 2 plug-in and/or host in binary form.

If you have signed the VST 2 license agreement (before October 2018), you can.
If not, you are not allowed to distribute it!
See here!

[_leras]

https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... nsing.html

Q: I am a developer/company and I want to develop and distribute a VST 2 plug-in and/or host in binary form.

If you have signed the VST 2 license agreement (before October 2018), you can.
If not, you are not allowed to distribute it!
See here!

But that could be different than it being supported in the latest Cubase/Nuendo/wavelab....

All round, I think this thread should be in the plug in development section... Not sure if this area is informed enough to be giving proper up to date information....

[Teksonik]

DAW support is not equal to DAW support: DAW manfactures can chose which extension they support and how.

Sorry but I think you're being a bit pedantic. DAW support of CLAP is DAW support of CLAP. Plugin support of CLAP is plugin support of CLAP.

Now if you're talking about full support of the CLAP format then yes that's different as developers can chose which part of the spec they support.

What I'm talking about is basic support of the format itself. Does your plugin have a CLAP version? Can your DAW load CLAP plugins?

Neither of my two most used DAWs can load CLAP plugins and only one of the 6 DAWs I own can load CLAP plugins.

I've said it since day one, if DAWs don't support the format then plugin developers have no incentive to develop for the format and if plugin developers don't support the format then DAW developers have no incentive. It's a catch 22.

Anyway the adoption rate for both at this point does not bode well for it to ever replace VST or other formats so to me the format is just a novelty and not a necessity.

[BobDog]

https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... nsing.html

Q: I am a developer/company and I want to develop and distribute a VST 2 plug-in and/or host in binary form.

If you have signed the VST 2 license agreement (before October 2018), you can.
If not, you are not allowed to distribute it!
See here!

But that could be different than it being supported in the latest Cubase/Nuendo/wavelab....

Steinberg have said in 2022 that within 2 years no Steinberg product on the hosting or plugin side will support VST2, this is common knowledge.

Other DAWs of course will.

All round, I think this thread should be in the plug in development section... Not sure if this area is informed enough to be giving proper up to date information....

What, plugin developers don't frequent the Bitwig sub forum?

You think the information on the Steinberg site about licensing is not correct?

[pdxindy]

When I read how u-he is now forced by Steinberg to discontinue offering VST2 (or even just having any VST2 code in their development files) I think CLAP is probably about to see continued support and a rise in popularity.

Strange that you put those 2 sentences in the same paragraph. Steinberg does not and will never offer CLAP support, so u-he had to move to VST3 anyway to continue supporting the huge installed base of Cubase users. And a serious user would never accept the use of a CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper in lieu of an actual VST3 plugin (like the new Altitude synth, for example). Musicians would expect vendors to include VST3 support as part of their business model.

u-he used to develop in VST2 and then that was wrapped to VST3, AU and AAX. Now they are in the middle of switching to developing in CLAP and wrapping to the other formats. Of course they are going to keep supporting VST3.

[pdxindy]

But I don't see developers abandoning the VST3 format in favour of CLAP. As such, I have no use for CLAP, and no apps that use it.

Developers aren't dropping VST3... they are adding CLAP. Even if in the future, Steinberg is the only DAW still supporting VST3, plugin developers will still offer VST3 versions just like they offer AAX.

I certainly have a use for CLAP. Being able to use Bitwig's unlimited per voice modulation system and note expressions with my favorite u-he synths is a game changer for me. For my use, CLAP is the most important feature addition by any DAW in a long time.