Bye bye VST2

[TS-12]

My favorite instrument plug-in:
" Steinberg / Wizoo Virtual Guitarist 2 " isn't VST3 neither 64 bit and it's discontinued.
I used it sometimes thru audiogridder.

[SamDi]

Sorry if I should have missed a point. But when Steinberg is going to force developers to drop VST2 - does that mean DAW vendours are also not allowed to support VST2 plugins anymore in the future and they need to disable this feature? Would be bad for all the still running but not maintained plugins.

It's difficult for me to understand what's going on and why. I mean, since VST3 is decades old, Steinberg just could have dropped maintenance and support, five or ten years ago, and for the Apple world VST2 would have run out in average in 3-5 years and after that for the Windows world it would also fade away slowly. Why do they do this unsympathic step, instead just dropping it and playing the cool guy?

If thats the case, we all should avoid to buy anything from Steinberg / Yamaha
It has worked by Waves to move back from their subscription only service and it may work for Steinberg.
It would make everything very complicated. If we want to open older projects, than nothing could be loaded, if you are on bitwig or ableton.
It's damn shit what Steinberg makes. We want backward compatibility.
Also there are lots of plugins like Alchemy, Strobe 2 that are VST2 only - f**k STEINBERG

I am not so deep emotionally involved. OK they behave like assholes, but I think it's not by intention, but rather by ignorance. I doubt, that they would really start to send out written notices to competitors if they don't follow these licence terms and I am even not sure how far these licence terms are applicable in front of courts especially in an international context.

Also I do not get the upset on developer side. Shouldn't they be happy to be able to drop one format and with this then all the testing-, support- and what not-issues? And if they really build their codebase around VST2, instead encapsulating it and make it format-agnostic, it's a technical debt, which they should get rid of anyway. Or is it the fear to drop VST2 support, while other developers are more bold and do not and get then to loose in the competition? I don't know.

For me, beside that backward compatibility stuff, it's not that annoying. I use VST3 over VST2 since a certain time, because they offer some few advantages (e.g. free scalability vs. not so free (just remember Fabfilter) or Sidechain-Support in Nuendo), while I don't see any advantages for VST2 except, that for some developers the VST2 version seems to be more stable and with fewer bugs, than the VST2-equivalent.

So for me as an end-user, I regard it even as an mid-term advantage, because I get rid of these double installs (I didn't drop VST2 completely because of this sometimes fewer bugs), then get hopefully better tested and thus stable VST3 plugins. And if this would lead to getting CLAP as an common aproached standard similar as AU (especially from DAW vendours side) it would be no disadvantage.

The only pitty thing, if DAWs would really going to drop VST2 support, would be the loss of old plugins for users. I also get your point with old projects, but isn't it like, that you better save them additional as stems anyway for conserving? Because if you really want to open them with all depreciated plugins, you need to take extra effort anyway (e.g. keep all plugin versions, if they have different IDs or start working with virtual machines). As I understood, there is at least a solution in the room, that projects, which loaded a VST2 version, can then seamlessly load the VST3 version instead.

[machinesworking]

I don’t know but I moved away from VST2 years ago. Not just because VST3 is better, but also because I always had an eye on the future, and the writing’s been on the wall for a loooong time. Not to mention, anything that isn’t VST3 also isn’t Apple Silicon anyways, so I don’t think this affects any of us on Mac that much. We’ve all done our house cleaning already. I’ve been prepping for this day for a long time. And here we are.

I bet none of you have 6 months worth of canned beans in a bomb shelter either.

I've done it as much as possible, but I still have a few VSTs that are VST2 only most notably the MPC 2 software. One thing you mentioned earlier though,

My advice would be to demand better VST3 support from the developers you patronize if they’re half-assing it.

No DAW developer is given some great template on how to host VST3, this is why it took them so long to adopt it, it's not at all how you imagine it, no one is half assing it, they're having to reverse engineer host support, and VST3 is a whole new ball game in terms of this.

[jens]

If thats the case, we all should avoid to buy anything from Steinberg / Yamaha
It has worked by Waves to move back from their subscription only service and it may work for Steinberg.

That makes no sense. Why would Cubase users care about Steinberg’s policies for developers of other DAWs?

And users of those other DAWs already aren’t Steinberg customers. That’s the whole thing about using other DAWs.

It worked against Waves because those were their own customers they were screwing over.

My advice would be to demand better VST3 support from the developers you patronize if they’re half-assing it.

Thats's silly nonsense. I am a Steinberg customer - and I am a user of other DAWs. Does that make your mind boggle?

[MJACau]

they're having to reverse engineer host support, and VST3 is a whole new ball game in terms of this.

Very true.

[dellboy]

Or keep using the current version. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to upgrade and Studio One is certainly mature enough, sufficiently full-featured, that you don't actually need to upgrade. My bandmate uses Cubase most of the time and he's perfectly happy with his current version, 10.5, which is now 3 or 4 years out of date.

Agreed. Your bandmate is wise. He avoids all the hassle of a modern world where we are constanly under pressure to upgrade.

[sacer]

Sorry if I should have missed a point. But when Steinberg is going to force developers to drop VST2 - does that mean DAW vendours are also not allowed to support VST2 plugins anymore in the future and they need to disable this feature? Would be bad for all the still running but not maintained plugins.

It's difficult for me to understand what's going on and why. I mean, since VST3 is decades old, Steinberg just could have dropped maintenance and support, five or ten years ago, and for the Apple world VST2 would have run out in average in 3-5 years and after that for the Windows world it would also fade away slowly. Why do they do this unsympathic step, instead just dropping it and playing the cool guy?

If thats the case, we all should avoid to buy anything from Steinberg / Yamaha
It has worked by Waves to move back from their subscription only service and it may work for Steinberg.
It would make everything very complicated. If we want to open older projects, than nothing could be loaded, if you are on bitwig or ableton.
It's damn shit what Steinberg makes. We want backward compatibility.
Also there are lots of plugins like Alchemy, Strobe 2 that are VST2 only - f**k STEINBERG

I am not so deep emotionally involved. OK they behave like assholes, but I think it's not by intention, but rather by ignorance. I doubt, that they would really start to send out written notices to competitors if they don't follow these licence terms and I am even not sure how far these licence terms are applicable in front of courts especially in an international context.

Also I do not get the upset on developer side. Shouldn't they be happy to be able to drop one format and with this then all the testing-, support- and what not-issues? And if they really build their codebase around VST2, instead encapsulating it and make it format-agnostic, it's a technical debt, which they should get rid of anyway. Or is it the fear to drop VST2 support, while other developers are more bold and do not and get then to loose in the competition? I don't know.

For me, beside that backward compatibility stuff, it's not that annoying. I use VST3 over VST2 since a certain time, because they offer some few advantages (e.g. free scalability vs. not so free (just remember Fabfilter) or Sidechain-Support in Nuendo), while I don't see any advantages for VST2 except, that for some developers the VST2 version seems to be more stable and with fewer bugs, than the VST2-equivalent.

So for me as an end-user, I regard it even as an mid-term advantage, because I get rid of these double installs (I didn't drop VST2 completely because of this sometimes fewer bugs), then get hopefully better tested and thus stable VST3 plugins. And if this would lead to getting CLAP as an common aproached standard similar as AU (especially from DAW vendours side) it would be no disadvantage.

The only pitty thing, if DAWs would really going to drop VST2 support, would be the loss of old plugins for users. I also get your point with old projects, but isn't it like, that you better save them additional as stems anyway for conserving? Because if you really want to open them with all depreciated plugins, you need to take extra effort anyway (e.g. keep all plugin versions, if they have different IDs or start working with virtual machines). As I understood, there is at least a solution in the room, that projects, which loaded a VST2 version, can then seamlessly load the VST3 version instead.

There are so much ideas and projects I started in Ableton, and haven’t finished.
Sometimes it’s a good inspiration to open an old idea as starting point. But if the plugins won’t work in futur I won’t know how these old projects sounds .
I‘ve never rendered or frozen anything.
I‘ve installed most older plugins and can open projects from 2006.
On my last system I haven’t installed my 32 bit plugins like dbglitch, groove agent or virtual guitarist. But I am on windows 11.
so everything works, except of some Native instruments plugins, that kicked authorisation.
There are different workflows. But I prefere to keep plugins saved, for later modifications, instead of wasting disc space to render all ideas or jams.
Other prefer to render in audio - there are different workflows. Maybe on Mac you are forced to, because a plugin won’t work with next OS update….
I am sure there are some people who have no problems when Steinberg forces other DAW competitors to drop VST2 - but there are lot of other people who want to open older projects.
My main DAW is Ableton, they joined vst3 very lately, that’s why a lot of projects from 2022 are mixed with VST2 and vst3. Most older projects before 2021 are vst2 only …

Also a lot of developers joined vst3 lately, like spire, serum, soundtoy or haven’t joined vst3 completely like UJAM.
Some other vst3 like vengeance avenger or Korg modwave are unusable in Ableton, because Ableton has a bug with slow vst3 preset change since years by some vst3 synths. Or all PSP vst3 plugins do crash Ableton
So even last year I have used a lot of vst2 plugins, and I stated avoiding vst2 in 2021 if I had a stable vst3 alternative….

Steinberg has a VST2 to vst3 converter but it also doesn’t work on all plugins, so you can’t open all old projects with vst3 instead of the vst2 version.

It would be no problem to allow them opening vst2 in future, maybe they see a disadvantage, if other daw support vst2 what they don’t.

[gaggle of hermits]

It would be no problem to allow them opening vst2 in future, maybe they see a disadvantage, if other daw support vst2 what they don’t.

this is the thing. it's just a d*ck move on Steinberg's part to use legalese to pull an anti-competitive move.

I don't even think they're going lose much market by turning off vst2 support in cubase while others continue to support it. but I guess there's some pointy-headed boss who has got it into their heads that they need to do it. now, because of the pointy-headed boss antics they're more at risk at losing the control they did have over the plugin market because this change has acted as rocket fuel for porting to CLAP.

oh no. anyway...

[jinxtigr]

I don’t know but I moved away from VST2 years ago. Not just because VST3 is better, but also because I always had an eye on the future, and the writing’s been on the wall for a loooong time. Not to mention, anything that isn’t VST3 also isn’t Apple Silicon anyways, so I don’t think this affects any of us on Mac that much.

Nope. Everything I do on VST2 gets a signed binary, Apple Silicon-native version alongside the original 'retro' version.

And is also my preferred format for ME to work with because it's all made with 'double replacing' enabled, so the 64-bit audio buss works with Reaper, and that's my preferred choice for digital processing. In fact I worked out how to do that in Pamplejuce for future GPLed VST3 plugins and have that set up even in the meter I'm working on. Once I work out VST3's stupid and baffling messaging system that prevents me even attaching a control to the audio thread, I'll be able to do, for instance, a gain plugin that alters the audio thread.

The VST2 version is about 150k in size, pretty much bulletproof as a rule, no-fuss no-trouble.

The VST3 version (with JUCE) is close to fifty megs, and half a gigabyte of space on my hard drive. Remains to be seen if it's anything like reliable.

I would also note that it's deeply weird to see people talking about 'migration'. Do you think that somehow old mixes you need to revisit will work once you've 'migrated' plugins from one format to another, from one version to another? I keep all the old releases downloadable in their original form for a reason: I get people frantic because they've updated something or other, lost the original plugins, and have mixes that require it. I've seen it myself and I MAKE the dumb things.

It's a bit like the fire at the Universal Studios vaults in 2008, where the masters to a lot of our recorded history burned. The masters will die. Except it's arson. It's… disappointing.

[jinxtigr]

Also I do not get the upset on developer side. Shouldn't they be happy to be able to drop one format and with this then all the testing-, support- and what not-issues?

Ok, so… Have you never made a piece of music that you liked and wanted to be able to return to in future?

Have you never had an instrument, or a plugin, that you liked? An instrument becomes your voice for expressing something.

As a dev, even if you have no feeling for the musicians who are creating their own stuff using your tools, even if you are so mean that you do not care if people are silenced and their favorite stuff taken away, even if you're able to be happy as people lose what they care about for your convenience… you still had better not be happy. Because they will set your mailbox on FIRE, man, and they will MAKE you understand what they've lost.

I'm so hung up on wanting to keep the musicans happy with the special tool they had in 2007 that I don't often run into the latter problem, but I assure you, it exists. Sometimes you gotta live with caretaking the thing you brought into the world because people don't love the 'New Coke', they think it sucks and want the clarity of the great thing you made back in the day. Sometimes the 'New Coke' does in fact suck, in spite of the hype. What is a corporation to do?

[mi-os]

Old project compatibility is also very important to me. But they seem to provide migration helpers which enable automatic VST2 to VST3 replacement.

There are plugins that will never get updated to VST3. The only solution would be a VST2 support wrapper plugin. If DAW developers get rid of native VST2 support they would then have to support that wrapper instead (if the goal is to provide an automatic solution for old projects).

[zvenx]

Current versions of my DAW of choice (Cubendo) no longer works with 32 bit plugins. I have quite a few very old projects that used plugins that never made it to 64 bit.. I keep older versions of Cubendo installed on my PC specifically for that purpose.
I definitely think the onus should be on me to do that not the DAW maker.
rsp

[Calagan]

Ok. What can we do as users in order to ask (politely) Ableton to consider clap as a new compatible format ?
There's some suggestions to like in Center Code (the beta site), but what else ?

I'm truly fed up spending time fixing things because of Steinberg, Native Instruments or Apple drama queens.
A vst2-vst3-migration-to-clap tool would save me many hours of pain and a lot of mental health points...

[zvenx]

I am curious, what have you had to fix with Steinberg stuff?
Yes there are a lot of threats etc but to date vst2 is still around. They only major change I can think of with Steinberg is from elicenser to their new licensing method, and I guess one could say that vst2 doesn't work on native apple silicon in Cubendo, but that isn't a change as it never did by definition.
rsp

[Audiority]

Ok. What can we do as users in order to ask (politely) Ableton to consider clap as a new compatible format ?

Well.. if any of you will be at Superbooth in May, can hop to their stand and push them