Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[machinesworking]

Personally I bought Bitwig a few years ago when Live didn't natively do MPE and I have to say all told I do like it better. There are multiple areas where I think Live comes out ahead: blatantly obviously better dual monitor support; M4L is far more advanced than the Grid, I mean you can do video editing in it even, and the devices made for it are insane; other musicians locally own Live, so collaboration is easier; it does native video scoring. The way Bitwig I believe creeps ahead is through core areas: it's simple, but having all the most used keyboard shortcuts as single key commands is super intuitive. I could go off about this, just the fact that v is for VST, and it's not three keys, and you don't need to initially "prime" the VST to get it to work ; devices are not just bread and butter; plugin sandboxing is something all DAWs should do; same with CLAP and DAW Project support; modulation is a never ending world; and setting up common parameters on a plugin either per preset or plugin is just very well thought out.

You really cannot go wrong with either, I think if i was doing audio/video installations the choice would be easily Live, but in terms of just banging out a song I tend to like working in Bitwig.

[machinesworking]

When I played live I had a very basic setup based around a telecaster and Blues Jnr...no gear lust, just gig lust! Once I stopped playing live (and stopped practicing) it all went nerdy...the the gear would compensate for me not putting the time in anymore!

Yep, I experience this, I have a roommate with depression that I care about who I end up spending time with and it eats into time I have for music, which leads to GAS. I'm saturated with everything but time.

[apoclypse]

The issue I have with both is limited choices in linear arrangement options and editing, at least compared to Logic, Cubase and DP. The initial composing phase is much faster for the most part in Bitwig and Live, and much slower when it comes to mixing and mastering.

I switched from Logic to Bitwig for my personal composing/producing of electronic music tracks. I still use (and probably always will use?) Pro Tools for engineering/post production/editing work.

I do find Bitwig to not only be fine for ITB mixing/mastering, it actually excels at it do to the modulation possibilities opening the doors for so many more options. Things like the FX Grid have made me take a 2nd, 3rd, 4th glance at any 3rd party plug-in I use because of the modulation and application uses it unlocks for them. You can have regular modulators modulate things on a 3rd party plug-in, but you can also open that plug-in nested inside an FX Grid container and REALLY start making some seemingly impossible things start to happen.

Also the nesting/parallel/selection routing possibilities of any plug-in you own are fantastic for ITB mixing. There are things I can do in Bitwig that are literally impossible to do in other DAWS without having to manually route, opening many instances of, and automate dozens and dozens of plug-in parameters meticulously, and yet with Bitwig these mixing decisions can be implemented in seconds and the mixing decisions move so musically with the program material.

But yeah, for certain tasks/jobs/workflows, especially what I refer to as "busy work" audio editing, both Bitwig and Ableton just ain't the program you should be using. It's 100% okay to reach for a traditional linear DAW for some of the stuff you need to get done. We are spoiled for choice in 2024.

Cheers

I've never used PT, it was 20K to get into back in the day, but IMO Digital Performer and even Logic are far better at automation for mixing than Bitwig or Live. Linear automation after the song is done, is not fun at all in those DAWs, but in DP and slightly less so in Logic, it's easy. There are a half dozen automation choices for instance.

It's not impossible and yeah the choices for parallel processing in Bitwig are fantastic, I just wish the linear timeline wasn't so limited.

I don't know about DP, but I think Automation in Live is superior to Logic. Live for example has shape tools that allow you to draw shapes as automation curves. It has something very similar to Studio One's transform tool as well which let you skew and reshape automation curves that you have selected. Logic's automation workflow is rudimentary in comparison imo.

I'm not a huge fan of the arrange view in Live (I don't like the rigidness of the default grid view), but automation is one of the things it does well imo.

[apoclypse]

Not when you have a multi device chain. It's not as simple as you are trying to paint.

For example, I add say Bazille to a track. Then I nest the Chorus+ device, and a Valhalla reverb, and an EQ inside the Bazille device.

Then I add a Preset Remote page and map what I want. Then I right click on the Bazille device and use the Save as Default command and now every time I load Bazille it will have those macros and that device chain... plus any modulators I used as well.

Every single Bitwig device and CLAP/VST plugin can have its own custom configured default state with macros, modulators and for instruments, nested devices.

Bitwig has multiple ways of nesting devices. You can nest at the device level, you can create a chain and nest that way. So in your example if I nested at the Chain level. I would create a Chain > Bazille > Chorus > Blur. All nested inside the Chain. However the way Bitwig wants you to nest is Bazille > Chorus > Blur. But for VSTs especially, Bitwig doesn't make this immediately clear as the icon for nesting looks different than internal devices. Another layer of complexity added that someone who is unaware is going to have to know.

In Ableton nesting is simple. Cmd/Ctrl+G on all selected device and it creates a Rack. Simple. Don't have to worry about nested devices inside of instruments, which can get complex really quickly. You don't have to worry about device pages vs preset pages. Everything is mappable up to the top level of the chain. You don't have to worry about FX vs Instrument nesting. Again I'm not saying that's a bad thing on Bitwig's part. I like the way Bitwig designed their devices and nesting. However it can be pretty complex for someone coming from another DAW, especially Ableton where this stuff is kept pretty simple and easy to understand.

That aside I want to map parameters at the device layer because maybe I want to use it as a template to build my own preset macros from. You can't do that in Bitwig. I can just click the Remote Map page click in the device section click on the remote button and then map it to a plugin in the chain. I would have to create a Macro modulator then map that modulator to the other device. I understand the logic behind the design but it's not immediately apparent what's happening imo.

[machinesworking]

I don't know about DP, but I think Automation in Live is superior to Logic. Live for example has shape tools that allow you to draw shapes as automation curves. It has something very similar to Studio One's transform tool as well which let you skew and reshape automation curves that you have selected. Logic's automation workflow is rudimentary in comparison imo.

I'm not a huge fan of the arrange view in Live (I don't like the rigidness of the default grid view), but automation is one of the things it does well imo.

Yeah the lack of shape tools in Logic is another huge WTF moment with it for sure, but it does have touch and latch for automation, and I miss that in Live/Bitwig. DP has LFO style automation shapes you can draw out, reshaping tools like Live, and a half dozen automation states. It can also get ridiculous, with Mix presets, basically being able to replace all the plugins in a project with a "preset" and new settings etc. There's also VCA faders, something Live and Bitwig sort of can do. I get that a lot of these are not that used by most people, but they're all there in DP and to an extent in Logic. Logic for instance has really well thought out drum comping, better than most. I'm certain Cubase and PT also excel in mixing and mastering. I don't always move a project to DP to mix and master, but honestly if I'm working with a live drummer or any amount of recorded live tracks I'm moving to DP before I commit.

IMO Bitwig and Live both sacrifice some core features of the dinosaur DAWs for an intuitive workflow, even the way that the play curser works in those DAWS is setup more for a beginner to quickly grasp, whereas in Logic/DP/Cubase you have multiple selection choices for how the play curser behaves. Bitwig "almost" get it right with giving you a choice in Settings on how the selection affects the play curser, but they screw it up by making it a preference instead of an assignable keyboard shortcut. Basically if there was anything that I would love to just beat into these companies it's that the arrangement timeline is not the area for easy UX choices for beginners, yet IMO both DAWs are severely limited arrangement window wise compared to the old school DAWs.

I'm not trying to trash on them for fun, I just would easily give up DP if Bitwig became at least a little more like the dinosaurs in the arrangement area. They concentrate far too much on electronic music composing and not enough on audio editing and arranging. So you get in both best in class control surface support, amazing FX that you would buy if they were a VST, modulation to die for, and basic arrangement windows and audio editing that don't compare at all to what the older DAWs offer.

[pdxindy]

Another layer of complexity added that someone who is unaware is going to have to know.

That's not a layer of complexity... just a minor inconsistency in visual appearance, but with the same functionality.

[pdxindy]

I like the way Bitwig designed their devices and nesting. However it can be pretty complex for someone coming from another DAW

That's always the case. If you are coming from DAW A, DAW B will be confusing in some regards. But if you are coming from DAW B, then DAW A will be confusing. Live has its idiosyncrasies too, but if that is what someone is used to, they don't see them as such anymore.

Anyway, Bitwig has Bounce in Place. If I have Bazille followed by 3 FX, and I use Bounce in Place. It bounces only Bazille. But if I nest those 3 FX in Bazille, then they are also bounced when using BiP. And of course one can choose which of the FX to nest to include in the BiP.

Live doesn't have Bounce in Place so it doesn't have to deal with the variables of that feature. I suppose that makes it simpler, but I wouldn't want to do without Bounce in Place.

[pdxindy]

In Ableton nesting is simple. Cmd/Ctrl+G on all selected device and it creates a Rack. Simple.

You can do exactly the same thing in Bitwig.

[pdxindy]

Yes, I almost joined the kick starter for that but as I had just got the PUSH 3SA so I held back- still watching it with interest (on the Discord Channel) and I never say never

It's a unique bit of gear. At least I haven't seen anything like it. It fits my setup of hardware and software and modular and it's a bonus that it has Bitwig integration.

Closest thing I had seen was the oxi one (and I did get that on kickstarter!) it also has a eurorack pipe, but the reliq looks next level…

Just received the latest Reliq update... they had some delay cause the screen they were using was EOL'ed and they sourced another but that of course means some re-jiggering of the internals. So I guess mine will arrive in August now.

[machinesworking]

Just received the latest Reliq update... they had some delay cause the screen they were using was EOL'ed and they sourced another but that of course means some re-jiggering of the internals. So I guess mine will arrive in August now.

I probably shouldn't ask what the price is on these, but I have to.

[apoclypse]

Another layer of complexity added that someone who is unaware is going to have to know.

That's not a layer of complexity... just a minor inconsistency in visual appearance, but with the same functionality.

That's not a minor inconsistency. It's fundamental to how Bitwig behaves vs Ableton. Nesting inside of devices as opposed to nesting as a rack chain like Ableton makes a world of difference in how you treat devices and the workflow of the app imo.

[apoclypse]

I like the way Bitwig designed their devices and nesting. However it can be pretty complex for someone coming from another DAW

That's always the case. If you are coming from DAW A, DAW B will be confusing in some regards. But if you are coming from DAW B, then DAW A will be confusing. Live has its idiosyncrasies too, but if that is what someone is used to, they don't see them as such anymore.

Anyway, Bitwig has Bounce in Place. If I have Bazille followed by 3 FX, and I use Bounce in Place. It bounces only Bazille. But if I nest those 3 FX in Bazille, then they are also bounced when using BiP. And of course one can choose which of the FX to nest to include in the BiP.

Live doesn't have Bounce in Place so it doesn't have to deal with the variables of that feature. I suppose that makes it simpler, but I wouldn't want to do without Bounce in Place.

I'm really not sure why you are bringing up BIP. I'm saying nesting is more complex/involved in Bitwig than Live and you bring up an example where you prove that to be true. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make there.

[apoclypse]

In Ableton nesting is simple. Cmd/Ctrl+G on all selected device and it creates a Rack. Simple.

You can do exactly the same thing in Bitwig.

You can but it creates an Instrument Layer, very similar to a Rack in Ableton, but my original point then comes into play where if want to add device parameters as macros you would have to do it at the Preset level vs the Device level. You can't map macros at the device level. Which was the point I was making to begin with. Again there is a logic behind that but Bitwig doesn't make it very clear to users imo.

[pdxindy]

Just received the latest Reliq update... they had some delay cause the screen they were using was EOL'ed and they sourced another but that of course means some re-jiggering of the internals. So I guess mine will arrive in August now.

I probably shouldn't ask what the price is on these, but I have to.

I think the regular price is gonna be something like $1800... The initial campaign price was much cheaper. If it lives up to expectations, it will still be worth the full price...

[pdxindy]

Another layer of complexity added that someone who is unaware is going to have to know.

That's not a layer of complexity... just a minor inconsistency in visual appearance, but with the same functionality.

That's not a minor inconsistency.

I was talking about the visual difference between where you nest in Bitwig devices compared to plugins... which is what you brought up.