Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[pdxindy]

I'm really not sure why you are bringing up BIP. I'm saying nesting is more complex/involved in Bitwig than Live and you bring up an example where you prove that to be true. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make there.

I brought up BiP as an example because Bitwig has additional functionality that Live doesn't have. Same with being able to nest devices inside the Delay feedback path. So yes, I agree there are more options in Bitwig, but no, I disagree that using them is more involved. Grouping a bunch of devices in a chain is simple just like in Live.

And if you want to add macros to a single device, that's easier in Bitwig cause you don't have to first nest it inside a rack.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Not when you have a multi device chain. It's not as simple as you are trying to paint.

For example, I add say Bazille to a track. Then I nest the Chorus+ device, and a Valhalla reverb, and an EQ inside the Bazille device.

Then I add a Preset Remote page and map what I want. Then I right click on the Bazille device and use the Save as Default command and now every time I load Bazille it will have those macros and that device chain... plus any modulators I used as well.

Every single Bitwig device and CLAP/VST plugin can have its own custom configured default state with macros, modulators and for instruments, nested devices.

Bitwig has multiple ways of nesting devices. You can nest at the device level, you can create a chain and nest that way. So in your example if I nested at the Chain level. I would create a Chain > Bazille > Chorus > Blur. All nested inside the Chain. However the way Bitwig wants you to nest is Bazille > Chorus > Blur. But for VSTs especially, Bitwig doesn't make this immediately clear as the icon for nesting looks different than internal devices. Another layer of complexity added that someone who is unaware is going to have to know.

In Ableton nesting is simple. Cmd/Ctrl+G on all selected device and it creates a Rack. Simple. Don't have to worry about nested devices inside of instruments, which can get complex really quickly. You don't have to worry about device pages vs preset pages. Everything is mappable up to the top level of the chain. You don't have to worry about FX vs Instrument nesting. Again I'm not saying that's a bad thing on Bitwig's part. I like the way Bitwig designed their devices and nesting. However it can be pretty complex for someone coming from another DAW, especially Ableton where this stuff is kept pretty simple and easy to understand.

That aside I want to map parameters at the device layer because maybe I want to use it as a template to build my own preset macros from. You can't do that in Bitwig. I can just click the Remote Map page click in the device section click on the remote button and then map it to a plugin in the chain. I would have to create a Macro modulator then map that modulator to the other device. I understand the logic behind the design but it's not immediately apparent what's happening imo.

I don't really follow most of this since everything you want to do in Live you can do in Bitwig. Plus a lot more. You don't need to worry about effects nested within devices if you don't want to. You can use that or ignore it. The benefit is that you can save effects with a preset that is only the device and effects, no chain or rack device. But you don' have to. You can chain or rack just like Live if you want to. And when it comes to saving preset controller pages, Bitwig has Live beat by miles. You can save a default for every plugin that's ready to go when you open it. Doesn't have to be saved as a preset or rack. You can macros to just the device, or if you want you can rack and assign macros that way. The different being you get as many macros and control pages as you want (even with gaps!). With live you jut get reordering of automation controls, no gaps. And then racks with max 16 macros. And the most annoying thing is that it locks up the parameter it maps too! You can edit the control on the original device. The mapping system in Live is maddening after using Bitwig, which is perfect. And you not only get device controls, but also track level and global. It's brilliantly designed.

All that being said, I've gone back to also using Live as well because of the performance pack with the snapshots. Most useful thing, and worth putting up with Live's (comparatively) annoying mapping and modulation system.

[machinesworking]

I think the regular price is gonna be something like $1800... The initial campaign price was much cheaper. If it lives up to expectations, it will still be worth the full price...

If the 16 audio in/outs can be used as an audio interface for your computer while in control surface mode, that would be a bargain price. Wish they had more details on their site, love the 16x16 interface etc.

[apoclypse]

Not when you have a multi device chain. It's not as simple as you are trying to paint.

For example, I add say Bazille to a track. Then I nest the Chorus+ device, and a Valhalla reverb, and an EQ inside the Bazille device.

Then I add a Preset Remote page and map what I want. Then I right click on the Bazille device and use the Save as Default command and now every time I load Bazille it will have those macros and that device chain... plus any modulators I used as well.

Every single Bitwig device and CLAP/VST plugin can have its own custom configured default state with macros, modulators and for instruments, nested devices.

Bitwig has multiple ways of nesting devices. You can nest at the device level, you can create a chain and nest that way. So in your example if I nested at the Chain level. I would create a Chain > Bazille > Chorus > Blur. All nested inside the Chain. However the way Bitwig wants you to nest is Bazille > Chorus > Blur. But for VSTs especially, Bitwig doesn't make this immediately clear as the icon for nesting looks different than internal devices. Another layer of complexity added that someone who is unaware is going to have to know.

In Ableton nesting is simple. Cmd/Ctrl+G on all selected device and it creates a Rack. Simple. Don't have to worry about nested devices inside of instruments, which can get complex really quickly. You don't have to worry about device pages vs preset pages. Everything is mappable up to the top level of the chain. You don't have to worry about FX vs Instrument nesting. Again I'm not saying that's a bad thing on Bitwig's part. I like the way Bitwig designed their devices and nesting. However it can be pretty complex for someone coming from another DAW, especially Ableton where this stuff is kept pretty simple and easy to understand.

That aside I want to map parameters at the device layer because maybe I want to use it as a template to build my own preset macros from. You can't do that in Bitwig. I can just click the Remote Map page click in the device section click on the remote button and then map it to a plugin in the chain. I would have to create a Macro modulator then map that modulator to the other device. I understand the logic behind the design but it's not immediately apparent what's happening imo.

I don't really follow most of this since everything you want to do in Live you can do in Bitwig. Plus a lot more. You don't need to worry about effects nested within devices if you don't want to. You can use that or ignore it. The benefit is that you can save effects with a preset that is only the device and effects, no chain or rack device. But you don' have to. You can chain or rack just like Live if you want to. And when it comes to saving preset controller pages, Bitwig has Live beat by miles. You can save a default for every plugin that's ready to go when you open it. Doesn't have to be saved as a preset or rack. You can macros to just the device, or if you want you can rack and assign macros that way. The different being you get as many macros and control pages as you want (even with gaps!). With live you jut get reordering of automation controls, no gaps. And then racks with max 16 macros. And the most annoying thing is that it locks up the parameter it maps too! You can edit the control on the original device. The mapping system in Live is maddening after using Bitwig, which is perfect. And you not only get device controls, but also track level and global. It's brilliantly designed.

All that being said, I've gone back to also using Live as well because of the performance pack with the snapshots. Most useful thing, and worth putting up with Live's (comparatively) annoying mapping and modulation system.

Okay. Let's put it this way since people aren't getting what I'm actually saying. Create a chain Bazille, Chorus+, Reverb. Select them all and press Cmd/Ctrl+G to create an Instrument Layer. Okay great. Now I want to add macros for the devices inside the layer. So you click Open Remote Page editor. Now you are presented with a page to add macros (what Bitwig calls remotes). Your first thought as a new user is to click on the device page, the Preset layer is empty. However if you try to add remotes from the device layer on anything that isn't the actual device, the instrument layer container itself, (which can be confusing considering everything inside of the instrument layer could theoretically be the device) you can't. You would need to know that you need to create a Preset I remember being extremely frustrated when I first bought Bitwig (2.2) and trying to map some parameters until I saw video explaining the difference between the Preset page and the Device page.

In version 5 they added Project and Track remotes as well, so now you can just create remotes there, which is great. However I personally wouldn't use them since I can't load presets or save them as presets. Great if I need a one off parameter I need to quickly gain access to but not very useful (to me) otherwise.

Don't get me wrong I agree that Bitwig's macro/remote system is amazing and well designed. I'm just saying that it's not as simple to use as Ableton Live's out of the box. That was the point I was making. Bitwig has an added layer of complexity, that isn't necessarily bad. In-fact that kind of control is what makes Bitwig great, but what also makes Ableton great is its simplicity and ease of use. While Ableton doesn't have the flexibility it makes up for it by being simple to use.

[apoclypse]

Another example about the difference in how Bitwig handles macros vs Ableton that could be confusing. So you've added a preset page and have mapped your parameters. Great!

You only want the cut off to go up to 50 percent when the macro knob is at 100%, or the you want to affect multiple parameters. You can only map one parameter from a preset page in Bitwig. You can't map multiple things to the same knob. You instead need to add a macro modulator to the device and modulate each parameter. Then you need to map that macro knob to the preset page. So now you've added more complexity to something that in Ableton is just as simple as hitting map touch the multiple parameters you want to affect then make changes to the already open Macro Mappings page to change how you want the macro to behave.

Again not a knock on Bitwig, the modulators lets you do things like add buttons etc. However Bitwig is more complex compared to Ableton in this particular case.

[Greenstorm33]

Bitwig's system of using the macro knob to offset from the current position of the mapped control seems vastly superior to Live's macro mapping where you just define the min and the max values and hand over full control to the macro knob but maybe that's just me.

[mholloway]

Bitwig's system of using the macro knob to offset from the current position of the mapped control seems vastly superior to Live's macro mapping where you just define the min and the max values and hand over full control to the macro knob but maybe that's just me.

They just updated this in Live 12 and it now works the way it works in Bitwig, so this is a non-issue as a point of comparison against v 12.

EDIT: I see you're talking about Macro knobs. My brain was reading it as being about modulation assignments, which are what have been thankfully updated, sorry. I think the Macro knobs still behave the same as before.

[pdxindy]

I think the regular price is gonna be something like $1800... The initial campaign price was much cheaper. If it lives up to expectations, it will still be worth the full price...

If the 16 audio in/outs can be used as an audio interface for your computer while in control surface mode, that would be a bargain price. Wish they had more details on their site, love the 16x16 interface etc.

I doubt it can be used as an audio interface. The 16x16 input/output matrix is fully analog. There are no AD converters AFAIK.

[Echoes in the Attic]

Bitwig's system of using the macro knob to offset from the current position of the mapped control seems vastly superior to Live's macro mapping where you just define the min and the max values and hand over full control to the macro knob but maybe that's just me.

They just updated this in Live 12 and it now works the way it works in Bitwig, so this is a non-issue as a point of comparison against v 12.

EDIT: I see you're talking about Macro knobs. My brain was reading it as being about modulation assignments, which are what have been thankfully updated, sorry. I think the Macro knobs still behave the same as before.

Yeah it's really unfortunate and surprising that Ableton made the mod assignments (lfo's/envs) so that you could still edit the target parameter but they didn't do the same for macros. So weird.

[xbitz]

And even with M4L, you cannot have multiple modulation sources for a single element simultaneously; you need some kind of device that sums up the sources


like IsotonikStudios Modulat

With Ableton Live, I have the exact same feeling as with FL Studio; the core development is very cumbersome, and they can only make significant improvements on the attached parts

[SLiC]

There is no doubt about it, Bitwig is king of modulation.....plus there are a ton of clever multi-modulators that I can 'appreciate' in Live and Bitwig, but I just don't use that much modulation!...Probably as I have always been mainly hardware based, I am just used to using a few things only...but obviously for some the modulation possibility's may be important to the music they make and use the 'DAW' for sound design. I am to lazy and I would probably just boot up Phase Plant or Falcon if I wanted something complex! !

[xbitz]

but, smart people can cobble together all sorts of clever things with modulation, see the list for example

Tutorial 824 - Cheat EQ
Tutorial 825 - Dual Filter
Tutorial 826 - Toploop
Tutorial 827 - Hybrid Vocal Verb
Tutorial 828 - MIDI Gate
Tutorial 829 - Harmonic Balance
Tutorial 830 - Parallel Loudness Rack
Tutorial 831 - Glitch Switch
Tutorial 832 - Multiband Compressor
Tutorial 833 - Bass Processor

https://www.sonicacademy.com/courses/te ... otoculture

[SLiC]

but, smart people can cobble together all sorts of clever things with modulation, see the list for example

Tutorial 824 - Cheat EQ
Tutorial 825 - Dual Filter
Tutorial 826 - Toploop
Tutorial 827 - Hybrid Vocal Verb
Tutorial 828 - MIDI Gate
Tutorial 829 - Harmonic Balance
Tutorial 830 - Parallel Loudness Rack
Tutorial 831 - Glitch Switch
Tutorial 832 - Multiband Compressor
Tutorial 833 - Bass Processor

https://www.sonicacademy.com/courses/te ... otoculture

Ruled me out in the first sentence + I wouldn't even know why/where to use half of those things, way over my head ! I just use Shaperbox, Multipass and Fabfilter stuff for some of that type of thing (as also works in Studio One which I use a lot)

[xbitz]

^^^ the modulation method of the VCV Surge modules is the same as in Bitwig, so it's not strictly necessary to use Bitwig if there's only a moderate need for such functionality.



There are quite a few of them https://library.vcvrack.com/?query=surg ... =&license=

It's like a fair here; they have everything.

Screenshot 2024-04-02 at 21.01.47.png

[liquidsound]

^^^ the modulation method of the VCV Surge modules is the same as in Bitwig, so it's not strictly necessary to use Bitwig if there's only a moderate need for such functionality.



There are quite a few of them https://library.vcvrack.com/?query=surg ... =&license=

It's like a fair here; they have everything.
Screenshot 2024-04-02 at 21.01.47.png

Is Surge-Rack also available for Cardinal-Rack?